Two Collings guitars - unplayable.

[Silly Moustache]

Hi,

I am dumbfounded, depressed and seeking some advice.

I have a 1998 DS2h (owed from new) and a 2003 0002h (owned since 2005).

I live in the southern UK where extremes of RH rarely occur apart from the depth of winter when the house heating (not hot air) tends to get down to about 20%. I tend to leave my guitars in their cases when not in use.

From May 2017 until about the same time this year I was too ill to pay much attention to my guitars. so they stayed in cases in a moderate art of the house.

Both guitars have developed a strange whining / buzzing sound mostly above the fifth fret on the 2,3,and 4th strings, even though the relief is higher than standard specs (.005") and with a higher action that preferred. (I prefer .080" treble and .100" bass (=/- .005")

I use D'addario PB strings - EJ17s on the Dread and EJ16s on the 000.

These guitars have been with a luthier back and forth for some months now and he can't figure out why they sound so harsh and have similar buzz issues.
On the dreadnought, he tried a couple of set-ups, then told me there was a very slight twist on the neck so removed the EVO frets, and "shot" the fretboard and fretted with frets supplied by Collings.
If anything it is now even worse.

I have asked him to explore loose braces or joints inside the box but he has been unable to identify any.

This guy has been a luthier/tech for over twenty years and makes his own brand solid guitars so he's not an amateur.

I'm at the end of my tether with these guitars and whilst he is too much of a gent to say so, I think he is too.

Any thoughts?

[kkrell]

I would get a second opinion luthier to look at it for perhaps a fresh perspective. Seek someone with particularly good trouble-shooting skills. Also try different strings (even if the D'addario's were fine for you in the past).

[Jcamp]

I’d suggest sending one of them either back to collings or ask them to send u to one of their luthiers. See if someone that specializes in those guitars can make them sound like new again. I’m sure it’ll cost but both of them are expensive guitars to begin with so they are worth to much to just put away and never play

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by kkrell

I would get a second opinion luthier

I think that is good advice.

I used to work for a guy who had many years of experience repairing guitars and who had started making his own line of electric guitars and basses. His primary interest was in electric instruments. He was well-reputed by most.

A few years later, I had a customer bring to me an old Gibson arch top guitar that produced a strange buzzing sound. He had had the well-reputed repairman look at it and had been told by him that it was a loose brace and would need the back removed to repair it at a cost of $300. (This was in 1980 prices.) He brought it to me for a second opinion.

Being an acoustic guitar guy, I knew immediately upon hearing it that it was not a loose brace. After about 15 minutes of trying to isolate the sound, I found that it was a loose washer under one of the tuning machines. $10 for my time.

The point of my story is that different people have different experience and skills. If one guy can't resolve it, someone else with a different experience might be able to.

[6L6]

I'd contact Frank Ford at Gryphon. World's best!

https://www.gryphonstrings.com

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Jcamp

I’d suggest sending one of them either back to collings or ask them to send u to one of their luthiers. See if someone that specializes in those guitars can make them sound like new again. I’m sure it’ll cost but both of them are expensive guitars to begin with so they are worth to much to just put away and never play

I'd thought of that - and probably the best end solution but shipping two rosewood guitar from the UK to the USA is problematic both ways, not least the shipping costs and Excise dties and Value added tax (20%)

I've asked Mark Althans who has given me the contact details of the one tech who is considered a Collings Repairer -and it was pointless calling him on a Saturday afternoon, but I may well do so next week.
I've also left a message for another luthier / tech to call me.

In the meantime I decided to try to re-humidify them like this :

[charles Tauber]

Any fine instrument should have its humidity controlled. The starting point is to measure the ambient humidity so that you know what you actually have. Most guitars are made in the 40 to 45% relative humidity range and that, ideally, is where one would like to maintain them. 20% RH is too low and risks cracks, loose braces and geometric changes.

If you have not humidified the guitars, themselves, they will be in equilibrium with whatever ambient humidity you have. Simply putting a hygrometer next to the guitar is sufficient: it doesn't need to be in the sound hole.

If you start humidifying the guitar, itself, rather than the ambient conditions, then, yes, place the hygrometer in the case or in the guitar body.

In the video, he mentions getting the humidity up to 65 to 70%. That shouldn't be the target. 40 to 45% is ideal, depending upon the RH of the environment in which it was made.

Until you have measured the RH, and know what you actually have, don't start humidifying unless there are obvious signs of dryness. Once you know what you have, then control and monitor the RH as needed.

Is there any reason to believe that your two guitars are too dry? Or, that they are the cause of the issues you are experiencing?

[rick-slo]

"Both guitars have developed a strange whining / buzzing sound mostly above the fifth fret on the 2,3,and 4th strings"

Strange.
Usually one can tell the fret buzz sound from other noises.

As far as string height the culprit strings are the inside ones which seems strange.


As said another opinion from a tech a good idea.

For a DIY exploratory approach I'd be looking for a fret that has popped up a bit. Also I might raise the saddle with a temporary shim to see if the noise goes away.

[steveh]

You’re in the UK: Jim Fleeting

The Roberto Venn guys rave about his setup skills etc.

Cheers,
Steve

[tadol]

Have you tried playing them capo’d at 5 and wrapping a towel around the headstock and nut? It can help isolate and possibly identify the kind of noise, and the location -

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

On the dreadnought, he tried a couple of set-ups, then told me there was a very slight twist on the neck so removed the EVO frets, and "shot" the fretboard and fretted with frets supplied by Collings.

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Why wouldn't he refret using EVO frets ?

[mirwa]

Second opinion is always good, some people are excellent in setups, some people are excellent in building, some people are excellent in repairing.

If the guitar has been defretted and refretted and the person is competant (not making an assumption here) then no fret buzz / Nut sitar’ing / Saddle sitar’ing should exist, so this means you need to look at other causes of noise, be that machine heads, truss rod or internal braces and or internal electrical components.

If the refret was not done well or competently then anything can be the cause and a second local opinion should be sought.

Purchance do you have photos of the neck of the guitar front and back

Steve

[Talldad]

I am really surprised at the 20% humidity. You might want to measure this differently. The humidity is usually around 50% in the uk, 55% in my home (Midlands), 70-80% outside in my workshop without the de-humidifier working.

20% indicates that climate change has turned the south into Arizona.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by mirwa

Second opinion is always good, some people are excellent in setups, some people are excellent in building, some people are excellent in repairing.

If the guitar has been defretted and refretted and the person is competant (not making an assumption here) then no fret buzz / Nut sitar’ing / Saddle sitar’ing should exist, so this means you need to look at other causes of noise, be that machine heads, truss rod or internal braces and or internal electrical components.

If the refret was not done well or competently then anything can be the cause and a second local opinion should be sought.

Purchance do you have photos of the neck of the guitar front and back

Steve

Hi, No issues from the headstock. Problems mostly start above the 5th fret. capoing a 4TH or 5th and playing 1st position shapes is awful.

This issue started before he saw either of them.

The set up was done on the Dread, no improvement, I thought the EVo frets would "last me out". although didn't care so much for the sound.

He refretted and the issue persists. He has investigator loose braces/struts - no issues detected.

The Frets he installed seem a little flat topped to me, but maybe that is a style ?

I tightened the trust rod 1/8" turn yesterday to ensure truss rod tight.

Ne benefit (apart from action slightly too high).

Both are now sitting in cases with (slightly) damp sponges on greaseproof paper. and hygrometer insiode and soudhole covered with card.

In the headstock area I have placed a small soapdish with "waterbeads".

I'll leave them like that until Tuesday then recheck but I'm also hoping I'll get calls from two other techs, one being the only Collings recognised guy up in London (he is VERY expensive!).

[mirwa]

Not knowing what the humidity of your guitar is and then exposing it to moisture is as bad as it being to dry.

Yes evo frets and stainless frets are not always welcome, have taken a few of these out when customers have been unhappy with how it makes their guitar feel.

Sight unseen it sounds like a neck / fret issue, that is why I said, assuming this was done correctly we will eliminate this from the suspects.

Steve