Boutique Depreciation

[Al Mojo]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

What people perceive as premium brands effect the market greatly. Take my 65 Epiphone Texan for instance. 90% of guitar players ask what I've got, and no one is impressed. Say you have a 65 Gibson, and irrespective of the guitar's quality, you have a certain status. Same factory, and the same body as a j 45, Epiphone is known as a budget brand now.

People can play a Martin pretty much anywhere, and Collings is pretty common too. It's comforting to buy one. Safe. Premium enough your friends will envy you. Easy sell. How many people have played a Huss and Daulton? Yet years ago at Gryphon, I played a H&D 000 they had just gotten at Gryphon. Asked my opinion, I thought it was the best 000 in the store.

I've played most of the boutique brands over the years, and I've put money on none of them.I just don't think they are that much better than a Martin. When I can buy a Martin D 18 Authentic used for $5,000, I'm not inclined to pay two grand more for something else. I'm way past needing to impress anyone. But I'm me and you're you. I'll be happy for you whatever you buy as long as you buy the guitar, not the bs and hype. Always the disclaimer is I'd likely change with $2M in the bank. I'd like to think not, but get real, I'd have a 38 D 18 day after tomorrow, for all the right and wrong reasons.

I see. All bets, beliefs, and superstitions are null and void if you have lots of money to buy expensive - especially iconic vintage Martin - guitars. Otherwise stay in your lane.

[buddyhu]

Collings hold their value very well. Pre-pandemic, a used Collings would often sell for 30% lesss than a new one.

Santa Cruz seems to hold value well, though this has been more true of their lower priced models (like a OMPW in standard woods)…but that seems to be changing. Recently, some folks have been setting asking prices of some of the pricier models (Tony Rice Pro; 1934’s) only slightly below their new prices.

Even as recently as 5 or 6 years ago, a used Bourgeois often sold for 50% less than the new price. Clearly, that has changed.

So some of what shapes resale value may depend on what is “in fashion” (which is one factor in determining demand).

The other posts have made excellent points about the consistent quality and/or reputation of some makers, and other factors which also affect demand and resale value.

Many great guitars from very small shops and individual luthiers that have excellent reputations and who consistently produce high quality of instruments do not do well on the used market. It can be baffling, but it also provides great opportunities for those who scour the used guitar market.

[lfoo6952]

Let me offer you a true life experience with my SC guitar. I paid $5k for it in 2015, brand new. I kept it in almost mint condition for 6 years and sold it in 2021 for $4.5k. I would say that is holding its value pretty well.

[hifivic]

Originally Posted by lfoo6952

Let me offer you a true life experience with my SC guitar. I paid $5k for it in 2015, brand new. I kept it in almost mint condition for 6 years and sold it in 2021 for $4.5k. I would say that is holding its value pretty well.

Keep in mind SC went up 30% in that time frame and you reaped the benefit. In my case my SC Custom OM/German/cocobolo took a 40% hit in 5 years.

[warfrat73]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

Santa Cruz seems to hold value well, though this has been more true of their lower priced models (like a OMPW in standard woods)…but that seems to be changing. Recently, some folks have been setting asking prices of some of the pricier models (Tony Rice Pro; 1934’s) only slightly below their new prices.

I don't know... on Reverb, "standard" PW models are going for around $6750, and some with Adi are more like $7500. Most used ones (including some with Adirondack) are available for $4000 or less (and that's asking price, not necessarily selling price). That's 40% or more.

I guess I wouldn't personally call that holding value well.

[tadol]

I only have some solid experience with Santa Cruz, but honestly, only with buying, as I sold very few, but bought a great many more. There is no single thing one can point to re: resale value of SCGC - but there are a few realities that you need to consider. First, a great many of the guitars SC built were custom - the purchaser (who may have been a guitar shop) was frequently involved in making decisions about the materials, scale, neck shape & width, and decoration. They also could express their desire about the tone and their playing style, and Richard Hoover could include that as part of the build. So, one thing I’ve learned is to always get all the details about a SC guitar, and a sound sample as well - the “same” guitar, can, if requested at time of ordering, have a fairly different voice. This is definitely not the case with others. Second, many people buying Santa Cruz guitars want to get a guitar that they’ve had “customized” - and while not as bad as having your name inlaid in the fretboard, the woods or specs may reduce the number of people who would be attracted to a guitar with some non-standard choices. Finally, most people who buy SCGC guitars are looking for a premium quality traditional musical instrument, and if you buy one with your only interest being it’s resale, your looking at the wrong brand. It’s kinda like beer, everyone knows and is willing to drink a Bud or Coors, and even if they make some special limited release, it’s still really just Bud or Coors. Not everyone knows, or likes, or tried, some of the small brewers around, but there are enough people who have and really appreciate them, and these special small shops can survive, and hopefully prosper.

I’m sure similar issues come up with Collings, or H&D, or FB, but since I have no first hand experience buying/selling them, I can’t say what their specifics are -

[capefisherman]

Originally Posted by buddyhu

Collings hold their value very well. Pre-pandemic, a used Collings would often sell for 30% lesss than a new one.

Santa Cruz seems to hold value well, though this has been more true of their lower priced models (like a OMPW in standard woods)…but that seems to be changing. Recently, some folks have been setting asking prices of some of the pricier models (Tony Rice Pro; 1934’s) only slightly below their new prices.

Even as recently as 5 or 6 years ago, a used Bourgeois often sold for 50% less than the new price. Clearly, that has changed.

So some of what shapes resale value may depend on what is “in fashion” (which is one factor in determining demand).

The other posts have made excellent points about the consistent quality and/or reputation of some makers, and other factors which also affect demand and resale value.

Many great guitars from very small shops and individual luthiers that have excellent reputations and who consistently produce high quality of instruments do not do well on the used market. It can be baffling, but it also provides great opportunities for those who scour the used guitar market.

I think this post pretty much boils it down very well.

"So some of what shapes resale value may depend on what is “in fashion” (which is one factor in determining demand). "

I presently own two Martin dreads, both limited editions (D-35 Seth Avett, CEO-1r) and a Bourgeois OM-150. I love all three but for different reasons and each has its place in my studio and playing gigs, depending upon factors like the style in which I'm playing. BUT.... over 50+ years of playing, performing and teaching I have seen that "in fashion" factor be a really major and important in setting prices and buying preferences.

I confess to being a Martin guy when all is said and done; by my rough count I've owned over three dozen in the search for the "perfect guitar (that has yet to be built!)" Also, having taught many hundreds of students over that space of time and knowing many local and very good players I've been able to play MANY of the boutique/small builder examples and while some were quite wonderful, some where m'eh at best and in each and every case what was the be-all, end-all maker's instruments at that moment in time played a huge part in why the owner bought that particular guitar from that manufacturer.

And even particular models within a larger maker's line are subject to the vagaries of popular opinion. I do believe that younger players are the ones that drive the popularity of particular makers, both higher end examples from Martin, Taylor and Gibson and "boutique" makers (whatever that actually means). The reality is the consistency of individual examples made by those three companies has improved to the point that a buyer is comfortable buying without playing first in most/all cases. But those of us "of a certain age" and relatively modest means are settling in with what we have....at least that's how it seems to me. And in terms of value on the resale market, that consistency has led to a pretty predictable selling price. Those boutique/small maker instruments - while having certain general characteristics - make a large part of the well-informed and experienced guitar-buying public wary of taking a chance on a used example.

So what can they do if they do not have a store anywhere nearby that sells those boutique maker instruments? Depend heavily on reputation, and yes, popularity at that moment in time.

I guess all I'm really saying is: make sure wherever you buy a high-end guitar offers a solid and reasonable return policy!

Gene

[Mr. Paul]

Terry, within the context of buying new and selling within weeks, none of the other brands mentioned can equal Martin's resale value. I would rate Collings as a strong second.

[HFox]

Originally Posted by tadol

I only have some solid experience with Santa Cruz, but honestly, only with buying, as I sold very few, but bought a great many more. There is no single thing one can point to re: resale value of SCGC - but there are a few realities that you need to consider. First, a great many of the guitars SC built were custom - the purchaser (who may have been a guitar shop) was frequently involved in making decisions about the materials, scale, neck shape & width, and decoration. They also could express their desire about the tone and their playing style, and Richard Hoover could include that as part of the build. So, one thing I’ve learned is to always get all the details about a SC guitar, and a sound sample as well - the “same” guitar, can, if requested at time of ordering, have a fairly different voice. This is definitely not the case with others. Second, many people buying Santa Cruz guitars want to get a guitar that they’ve had “customized” - and while not as bad as having your name inlaid in the fretboard, the woods or specs may reduce the number of people who would be attracted to a guitar with some non-standard choices. Finally, most people who buy SCGC guitars are looking for a premium quality traditional musical instrument, and if you buy one with your only interest being it’s resale, your looking at the wrong brand. It’s kinda like beer, everyone knows and is willing to drink a Bud or Coors, and even if they make some special limited release, it’s still really just Bud or Coors. Not everyone knows, or likes, or tried, some of the small brewers around, but there are enough people who have and really appreciate them, and these special small shops can survive, and hopefully prosper.

IÂ’m sure similar issues come up with Collings, or H&D, or FB, but since I have no first hand experience buying/selling them, I canÂ’t say what their specifics are -

As usual Tad is right on when speaking about SCGC...I have purchased 8 SC guitars over the last 10 years ( 3 new custom builds to my specs and 7 used)
I have sold 2 of the used and recieved almost dollar for dollar for them.
When I started my involvment with "Botique" guitars I played Collings and H& D and Bourgeios and just did not connect with their sound. When I played a used SC I fell in love with it's voice and became a SC Fan.
But as some of the others have posted SCs seem to hold their value better on the West Coast than other parts of the country.
But as tad said if you are going to by a Santa Cruz custom build with the intent to resell within a short period of time you should look elsewhere.
As Richard Hoover says "Santa Cruz guitars are meant to be passed down".

[hifivic]

This is a really great thread although very tricky as the lucky "in the right place at the right time" folks that were fortunate enough to buy a guitar before the guitar had a major 30% price increase are the ones that reap the benefit$. Add the supply and demand that co-vid has added to the equation and it skews things even more. Timing is everything and from my experience governs whether you will either break even or lose 40% regardless of brand although one brand seems to be impervious regardless.

[gmel555]

Originally Posted by TDavis

Is it QC, fit/finish, or percieved value? I'm in the car business, and vehicles like Toyota & Honda retain a much higher resale value than pretty much all their competition...mostly due to quality, reliability, and (to a degree) hype built by 50-years or more of media reviews & reporting. Could it be some of that?

My take is that any differences in the value of used guitars from these makers (and other comps) has less to do with perceptions on "fit and finish" (which is excellent in all three) and more to do with choices of tone, playability and other personal -sometimes intangible- preferences (including "Hype", which I'll call branding/marketing). Just my opinion, but I don't see the car fit & finish analogy fitting in on this one.

[jw3571]

I've made a few forum members very happy with a few of my SCGC and Collings guitars i've decided to sell. Mine were fairly new so I took a huge beating on both brands but more so on the SCGC's. Bourgeois and Huss and Dalton seem to be by far the worst as far as resale value and how long it takes to sell them.

Makes you appreciate how easy it is to sell Martin's and Gibson's.

[warfrat73]

I decide to do some math and put some numbers to this. This is clearly just a snapshot. And, I recognize that Reverb isn't the entire market, but it's pretty indicative.

It's based on what's available on Reverb from Collings, Bourgeois, Huss and Dalton and Santa Cruz.

I did my best to choose base level models listed both new and used, and also included the last ten sold examples where they were available. It was a little bit tough at times with so many different variations of model names and customizations.

Also, I'm pretty sure that even the sold listing on Reverb only display the asking price, not the selling price (but I'm not 100% sure on that). Though, I do think it's safe to assume that the actual market sits a a few percentage points below the mean, since at least some of these are selling at below asking, while presumably none are selling over asking. I think it's also fair to assume that new listings are selling pretty much at their asking cost, especially since the builders do regulate that a bit.

These figures do not account for differences in condition. But here's what I came up with:

Collings:

I chose the base model D1 and OM1 without upgrades such as torrificaiton, or the Julian Lage model, etc. So just OM1 and D1 with sitka tops.

7 New Available at a mean of $4907 (range 4675-5050)

4 Used available at a mean of $4516.5 (range $3999-5043)

10 Sold at a mean of $3800 (range $3150-5100)
Combined mean of available and sold used: $4001

Based on asking price, Collings 1 models maintain about 81.5% of their value on the used market.

This drops to 77% for sold only (which is probably the more useful number).

Bourgeois

Bourgeois was tough, because there wasn't much available. I decided to do the Generation Series, which is the entry level, but there's not much. I looked at the Country Boy series too, but there was so much variation in the few offerings, it didn't seem very helpful.

So, Generation Series it was, D and OM combined again, this only includes base models with no upgrades.

5 New available at a mean of $4805 (range $4769-$4999)

0 used available
2 sold at a mean of $2875

Really, really small sample size... but Generation Series maintaining 59.8% of value.

Huss and Dalton

I chose to do the "Traditional" series, partly because that gave the most data points. This includes 00, OM, and Dread, since they were comparably priced.

6 New available at a mean of $4562 (range $4250-4760)

6 Used available at a mean of $4218.33 (range $3800-5086... that $5086 is a pretty big outlier at +$600 over next highest)

10 sold at a mean of $3481 (range $2400-4100... another big outlier on that $2400 which is $700 below the next lowest)

Combined mean of available and sold used: $3757.50

This puts used H&D Traditional models at about 82% of their new value, which is surprising based on comments by such people as <checks notes> myself, about the perception that H&D drops off more than others.

That drops to 76.3% for sold only.

Santa Cruz

Santa Cruz was one of the easier to run, and had one of the larger sample sizes. I used the PW series, both OM and Dread. For Santa Cruz I ran two sets of numbers, one for stock models with Sitka tops, and one for upgraded tops (mostly Adi, but a Cedar or 2 in there). There is one available with a Moon Spruce top that was a major outlier at over $8k asking price new. I omitted that from the numbers. Also omitted are models with upgraded back and sides (there are a couple of koa and BRW ones that really skew things) I included that last 10 sold combined between stock and upgraded.

3 New Stock available at a mean of $6242.50 (range $5400-$6727.50... that $5400 is a major outlier, but included in the numbers)

5 New upgraded available at a mean of $7250 (range $6700-7475)

9 Used stock available at a mean of $4206 (range $3850-$4500)
8 Used stock sold at a mean of $3808 (range $3000-$4200)
Combined mean of used/sold stock: $3777.82

3 Used upgraded available at a mean of $4650 (range of $3700-5650)
2 Used upgraded sold at a mean of $4625 (range of $3600-5650)
Combined mean of used/sold upgraded: $4640

Based on these numbers, used stock PW models are maintaining about 60.5% of their new value. Dropping the low outlier from the calculations puts this at about 56.7%.

Used upgraded models are maintaining about 64% of their value.

And combined, stock and upgraded models are maintaining about 60.6% of their new value.

Including only sold items, this drops to 57.6%.


I'm not a data scientist, and I know that these are small sample sizes, and only providing a snapshot of the current market. But I thought it was interesting enough to waste a fair amount of time on.

[Br1ck]

I wonder how more availability effects prices. There are probably more Collings D 1As for sale than other brands, thus more competition. So it's perceived market value vs availability. A buyer has to think, man Collings are good (a pricing plus) then gee, ten on reverb right now, I'll make offers and see what happens.

All this becomes much less important when you become much more selective in what you buy. If you enjoy the dopamine rush, you need to really know the market so as not to take multiple hits. But even that disappears if you can easily take the hit.It's all so dependent on your means.

I've owned my guitars for 20, 8, 8, 6, and three years respectively. So I average a guitar buy every five years. So if I overpay for something I want, it's not that big a deal. The last guitar I sold I owned 25 years and sold it to a friend well under market. It took me a while to become selective to the point resale really doesn't matter.

[Kyle215]

Originally Posted by warfrat73

I decide to do some math and put some numbers to this. This is clearly just a snapshot. And, I recognize that Reverb isn't the entire market, but it's pretty indicative.

It's based on what's available on Reverb from Collings, Bourgeois, Huss and Dalton and Santa Cruz.

I did my best to choose base level models listed both new and used, and also included the last ten sold examples where they were available. It was a little bit tough at times with so many different variations of model names and customizations.

Also, I'm pretty sure that even the sold listing on Reverb only display the asking price, not the selling price (but I'm not 100% sure on that). Though, I do think it's safe to assume that the actual market sits a a few percentage points below the mean, since at least some of these are selling at below asking, while presumably none are selling over asking. I think it's also fair to assume that new listings are selling pretty much at their asking cost, especially since the builders do regulate that a bit.

These figures do not account for differences in condition. But here's what I came up with:

Collings:

I chose the base model D1 and OM1 without upgrades such as torrificaiton, or the Julian Lage model, etc. So just OM1 and D1 with sitka tops.

7 New Available at a mean of $4907 (range 4675-5050)

4 Used available at a mean of $4516.5 (range $3999-5043)

10 Sold at a mean of $3800 (range $3150-5100)
Combined mean of available and sold used: $4001

Based on asking price, Collings 1 models maintain about 81.5% of their value on the used market.

This drops to 77% for sold only (which is probably the more useful number).

Bourgeois

Bourgeois was tough, because there wasn't much available. I decided to do the Generation Series, which is the entry level, but there's not much. I looked at the Country Boy series too, but there was so much variation in the few offerings, it didn't seem very helpful.

So, Generation Series it was, D and OM combined again, this only includes base models with no upgrades.

5 New available at a mean of $4805 (range $4769-$4999)

0 used available
2 sold at a mean of $2875

Really, really small sample size... but Generation Series maintaining 59.8% of value.

Huss and Dalton

I chose to do the "Traditional" series, partly because that gave the most data points. This includes 00, OM, and Dread, since they were comparably priced.

6 New available at a mean of $4562 (range $4250-4760)

6 Used available at a mean of $4218.33 (range $3800-5086... that $5086 is a pretty big outlier at +$600 over next highest)

10 sold at a mean of $3481 (range $2400-4100... another big outlier on that $2400 which is $700 below the next lowest)

Combined mean of available and sold used: $3757.50

This puts used H&D Traditional models at about 82% of their new value, which is surprising based on comments by such people as <checks notes> myself, about the perception that H&D drops off more than others.

That drops to 76.3% for sold only.

Santa Cruz

Santa Cruz was one of the easier to run, and had one of the larger sample sizes. I used the PW series, both OM and Dread. For Santa Cruz I ran two sets of numbers, one for stock models with Sitka tops, and one for upgraded tops (mostly Adi, but a Cedar or 2 in there). There is one available with a Moon Spruce top that was a major outlier at over $8k asking price new. I omitted that from the numbers. Also omitted are models with upgraded back and sides (there are a couple of koa and BRW ones that really skew things) I included that last 10 sold combined between stock and upgraded.

3 New Stock available at a mean of $6242.50 (range $5400-$6727.50... that $5400 is a major outlier, but included in the numbers)

5 New upgraded available at a mean of $7250 (range $6700-7475)

9 Used stock available at a mean of $4206 (range $3850-$4500)
8 Used stock sold at a mean of $3808 (range $3000-$4200)
Combined mean of used/sold stock: $3777.82

3 Used upgraded available at a mean of $4650 (range of $3700-5650)
2 Used upgraded sold at a mean of $4625 (range of $3600-5650)
Combined mean of used/sold upgraded: $4640

Based on these numbers, used stock PW models are maintaining about 60.5% of their new value. Dropping the low outlier from the calculations puts this at about 56.7%.

Used upgraded models are maintaining about 64% of their value.

And combined, stock and upgraded models are maintaining about 60.6% of their new value.

Including only sold items, this drops to 57.6%.


I'm not a data scientist, and I know that these are small sample sizes, and only providing a snapshot of the current market. But I thought it was interesting enough to waste a fair amount of time on.

Great post, thanks for putting all that together. Good “ballparking” exercise.

That $5400 SCGC PW is a B Stock, pretty sure, because I was watching it for a while before I decided on something else.

Also just a random thought - my impression is that a lot of H&D’s new builds nowadays are customs/commissions. Just based on occasionally checking out their “just shipped” section. Though I guess it’s possible they only post the good stuff there.