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Old 11-27-2020, 05:47 PM
subby subby is offline
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Default UST not playing nice with humbuckers

I added a UST to a board with 2 existing humbuckers and the UST is coming out with a lot of treble and the humbuckers have flattened out. What do I need to put between the UST and the board to get it all to play nice? Thanks!
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Old 11-28-2020, 07:46 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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I need a little more detail on exactly how you wired this up.

Does the UST sound OK on its own?

If the UST is active and buffered before mixing with the magnetic pickups, the problem might be as simple as phase reversal.
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Old 11-28-2020, 09:14 AM
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The best applications I've seen have sent the UST through its own chain and directly to the P.A. rather than through the electric guitar chain with the mag pickups. for example, Andy Powell of Wishbone Ash has had a UST on his custom flying V for years and runs two signal chains.

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Old 11-28-2020, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
The best applications I've seen have sent the UST through its own chain and directly to the P.A. rather than through the electric guitar chain with the mag pickups. for example, Andy Powell of Wishbone Ash has had a UST on his custom flying V for years and runs two signal chains.

Bob
I have a Fishman Matrix Infinity running to it's own preamp/jack (sounds amazing), but I was hoping I could pull this off so the whole system would be integrated and I could ditch the Fishman.
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Old 11-28-2020, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
I need a little more detail on exactly how you wired this up.

Does the UST sound OK on its own?

If the UST is active and buffered before mixing with the magnetic pickups, the problem might be as simple as phase reversal.
It's a T5z and I've swapped out the body sensor with the K&K knockoff (JJB. Great quality) and run it directly to the molex connector that was formerly the body sensor on the Taylor board in an effort to have it engaged in position 1 with the neck humbucker. I wired the positive to the hot and the negative and ground together. I did it the other way and the results were identical.

The humbuckers are now muffled in all positions and in position 1 the K&K knockoff is twangy and treble-heavy. I would say it sounds almost identical to the body sensor I was previously unsatisfied with.

I have a Fishman Matrix running to another jack that sounds amazing, I was hoping to integrate the whole system with the K&K and ditch the Fishman for simplicity and ease of use.

I'm not understanding why systems like the Fishman Powerbridge can integrate easily into 2 humbucker systems on electric guitars, but this is giving me so much trouble.
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Old 11-28-2020, 10:37 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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Originally Posted by subby View Post
It's a T5z and I've swapped out the body sensor with the K&K knockoff (JJB. Great quality) and run it directly to the molex connector that was formerly the body sensor on the Taylor board in an effort to have it engaged in position 1 with the neck humbucker. I wired the positive to the hot and the negative and ground together. I did it the other way and the results were identical.

The humbuckers are now muffled in all positions and in position 1 the K&K knockoff is twangy and treble-heavy. I would say it sounds almost identical to the body sensor I was previously unsatisfied with.

I have a Fishman Matrix running to another jack that sounds amazing, I was hoping to integrate the whole system with the K&K and ditch the Fishman for simplicity and ease of use.
I'm not sure why the individual humbucker pups are not performing correctly unless you put the JJB into the hum canceling coil jack and not the body sensor. The bridge pickup solo should still work if you did that.

Regardless, the JJB is not going to work in the place of the body sensor which is wired in series with the neck pickup and hum cancelling coil when selected. The JJB is a very high impedance with series capacitance and the magnetic pickups are relatively low impedance with series inductance. To mix them will require active electronics.

Here is my reverse engineering of the T5z switching schematic.

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=401790

Far center is the hum cancelling coil for the neck pup:


Far left is the body sensor:
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Last edited by jonfields45; 11-28-2020 at 10:42 AM.
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Old 11-28-2020, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
I'm not sure why the individual humbucker pups are not performing correctly unless you put the JJB into the hum canceling coil jack and not the body sensor. The bridge pickup solo should still work if you did that.

Regardless, the JJB is not going to work in the place of the body sensor which is wired in series with the neck pickup and hum cancelling coil when selected. The JJB is a very high impedance with series capacitance and the magnetic pickups are relatively low impedance with series inductance. To mix them will require active electronics.

Here is my reverse engineering of the T5z switching schematic.

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=401790

Far center is the hum cancelling coil for the neck pup:


Far left is the body sensor:
This is interesting. For my application, would something like the Fishman Powerchip Preamp (link below) between the JJB and the Taylor board balance things out? Seems that's what they use for mixing humbuckers and their Piezo Powerbridge in electric guitars. I know they dont have the Taylor board mixed in there.

https://www.bluestarmusic.com/Fishma...aft_p_704.html
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Old 11-28-2020, 01:48 PM
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This is interesting. For my application, would something like the Fishman Powerchip Preamp (link below) between the JJB and the Taylor board balance things out? Seems that's what they use for mixing humbuckers and their Piezo Powerbridge in electric guitars. I know they dont have the Taylor board mixed in there.

https://www.bluestarmusic.com/Fishma...aft_p_704.html
I took a quick look at the Powerchip and it appears it could do the job. Both the JJB and the Taylor preamp output would be connected to it and it would do the mixing job and drive the guitar's output jack (instead of the Taylor preamp). You would also want to restore the Taylor summing board to the factory stock configuration (the various series connections of the Taylor magnetic elements means you need all the inputs used).
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Old 11-28-2020, 11:56 PM
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I took a quick look at the Powerchip and it appears it could do the job. Both the JJB and the Taylor preamp output would be connected to it and it would do the mixing job and drive the guitar's output jack (instead of the Taylor preamp). You would also want to restore the Taylor summing board to the factory stock configuration (the various series connections of the Taylor magnetic elements means you need all the inputs used).
Thanks! If I’m understanding correctly, this would simply cut out the need for the second jack, I still wouldn’t be able to use the on-board Taylor controls to switch the JJB on and off and adjust it’s tone?
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Old 11-29-2020, 06:58 AM
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Thanks! If I’m understanding correctly, this would simply cut out the need for the second jack, I still wouldn’t be able to use the on-board Taylor controls to switch the JJB on and off and adjust it’s tone?
The on-board controls will only impact the Taylor pickups. You will need to mount the Powerchip such that it's piezo volume control is assessible when you play. The Powerchip provides internal controls (set once at install) to match its volume with the magnetics and choose the correct phase (as I mentioned earlier). There will be no tone control for the JJB in this setup. You could easily add an electric guitar style treble roll-off tone control if you don't mind drilling a second hole. The switched power for the Powerchip would need to be run to the Taylor preamp as it's output jack which switches its power is now gone.

Another option would be putting the Powerchip between the Taylor switch and preamp board which would let the Taylor controls impact the JJB. This would require a bit more complex surgery and minor modification to the Powerchip to replace it's assumed direct connection to the output jack of the guitar (you would need to locate the Taylor switched 9v power and run that to the Powerchip as its power switch is in its output jack). You would still need to cut a hole to mount the Powerchip and have access to the piezo volume control.

If you want to route the JJB to the Taylor preamp, which will likely work OK, a simple toggle switch to choose between the Taylor switch and the JJB unbuffered output would be easier. I suspect the volume match between the magnetics and the JJB will be reasonable but not identical. It won't be a switch you will want to toggle in the middle of a song.
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Old 11-29-2020, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
The best applications I've seen have sent the UST through its own chain and directly to the P.A. rather than through the electric guitar chain with the mag pickups. for example, Andy Powell of Wishbone Ash has had a UST on his custom flying V for years and runs two signal chains.

Bob
That's the way my new PRS SE Piezo is wired. Two outputs, and the piezo goes direct to the mixer (Yamaha Stagepass) with the humbuckers first through effects (Zoom G3) then to a second channel. Way different settings on the channels so I can control at the guitar properly, and changing the G3 effects doesn't change the "acoustic" tone.
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Old 12-01-2020, 08:12 PM
subby subby is offline
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Originally Posted by jonfields45 View Post
The on-board controls will only impact the Taylor pickups. You will need to mount the Powerchip such that it's piezo volume control is assessible when you play. The Powerchip provides internal controls (set once at install) to match its volume with the magnetics and choose the correct phase (as I mentioned earlier). There will be no tone control for the JJB in this setup. You could easily add an electric guitar style treble roll-off tone control if you don't mind drilling a second hole. The switched power for the Powerchip would need to be run to the Taylor preamp as it's output jack which switches its power is now gone.

Another option would be putting the Powerchip between the Taylor switch and preamp board which would let the Taylor controls impact the JJB. This would require a bit more complex surgery and minor modification to the Powerchip to replace it's assumed direct connection to the output jack of the guitar (you would need to locate the Taylor switched 9v power and run that to the Powerchip as its power switch is in its output jack). You would still need to cut a hole to mount the Powerchip and have access to the piezo volume control.

If you want to route the JJB to the Taylor preamp, which will likely work OK, a simple toggle switch to choose between the Taylor switch and the JJB unbuffered output would be easier. I suspect the volume match between the magnetics and the JJB will be reasonable but not identical. It won't be a switch you will want to toggle in the middle of a song.
If I wanted to go full nuclear and pull the taylor board, is it possible to run the existing humbuckers and the fishman undersaddle to the Fishman Powerchip and a 3 way switch (undersaddle / Blend / Humbuckers)? So its just the Taylor humbuckers, the Fishman Powerchip, the Fishman undersaddle, and a 3 way switch? It's the set up the Powerchip is intended for, but it's usually the PowerBridge in place of the undersaddle in this instance, and the Taylor humbuckers have the Positive / Negative / Ground wiring.

Any input you can give on this one I very much appreciate.
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Old 12-02-2020, 06:43 AM
jonfields45 jonfields45 is offline
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Originally Posted by subby View Post
If I wanted to go full nuclear and pull the taylor board, is it possible to run the existing humbuckers and the fishman undersaddle to the Fishman Powerchip and a 3 way switch (undersaddle / Blend / Humbuckers)? So its just the Taylor humbuckers, the Fishman Powerchip, the Fishman undersaddle, and a 3 way switch? It's the set up the Powerchip is intended for, but it's usually the PowerBridge in place of the undersaddle in this instance, and the Taylor humbuckers have the Positive / Negative / Ground wiring.

Any input you can give on this one I very much appreciate.
I think that would work a little differently than what you want and I wish I had thought of it back when I owned my T5z. The T5z acoustic tone is not as good as the A6 Ultra I had before it where I would blend the UST and neck magnetic for amplified acoustic tone (but the lack of a bridge magnetic pickup ultimately became a deal breaker).

You will want to add a passive 500K volume (and tone?) control(s) for the Taylor magnetics and run that to the Powerchip. The Powerchip assumes separate magnetic and piezo inputs. You add piezo to the guitar output with the Powerchip volume control.
  1. T5z switch (or your substitute, it is a standard Strat style mounting) -> passive controls -> Powerchip
  2. Piezo -> Powerchip
At the input to the passive controls you can short ground and negative together.

But you don't get your goal of a single switch going between all the magnetic options and the piezo. Possibly the T5z native magnetic "acoustic" selection might sound great with a little SBT added.

You could use the piezo input only of the Powerchip and put your "one switch to rule them all" ahead of that, but the volume mismatch between the piezo and magnetic elements and the lack of ability to blend piezo and neck magnetic with a POT would be a deal breaker for me.

And one more useful bit of info, the Taylor preamp, all piezo preamps except the Fishman Matrix (to my knowledge), are flat response. That makes all of this a bit more flexible and if you want to ditch the Taylor switch and add the JJB directly to that replacement, aside from the volume mismatch and no ability to blend magnetic and piezo, it will very likely work fine with the Taylor preamp.

If you go to my duo website you will find my phone number and we could talk this out much more quickly.
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Last edited by jonfields45; 12-02-2020 at 07:25 AM.
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