Lutherie in retirement

[Sponserv]

If a person really loved guitars and wanted to learn to build them what would you suggest as far as a school/apprenticeship to learn the craft.

I realize that making a living as a luthier is not really feasible for numerous reasons. But if a person was retired and not really looking to make a living building and repairing stringed instruments how would one go about learning the trade?

My next question relates to custom builders. With lots of schools of lutherie and the ability to buy all the tools and materials you need how does one get noticed as a custom builder? Do they just build the best pieces they can and go to the shows? Until they get noticed do they just build guitars and sell them to friends?

[SJ VanSandt]

A lot depends on your prior experience, I imagine. If you have been doing woodworking or another craft that requires fine skills and thought, you probably have a head start. I've heard that one should build quite a few guitars before you hang out your shingle, so to speak, but some seem to pick it up pretty quickly. An ambitious undertaking and I wish you the best.

Although a reputable school is probably the best route, there are several luthiers that offer different levels of apprenticeship. My friends Steve Kinnaird and Ryan Middlebrook, for instance, will let you build a complete guitar under their tutelage over the course of a few days. They offer guidance every step of the way, but the guitar is completely your work. I think that would be great fun, and a good start.

Hope this helps,

Stan

[printer2]

The question is your goals? Have you worked with wood previously, do you have tools or a space to work in? How much space and money do you plan to sink into the hobby? People can build with a handful of hand tools with a sprinkling of power tools, other people make use of jigs and some make use of CNC equipment to build with. Do you want to collect wood and store it or just buy for the individual project? Money buys you time, power tools and jigs helps to make some jobs faster. At what point do you cross over into having a little guitar building factory?

Or is that you really want? If you are just building for the enjoyment of it the time put into a task may not be of importance. Forms and jigs can make you more accurate in building, you refine your process until you achieve the level of perfection you want, not that they eliminate mistakes. You will have a lot of, "Darn" moments. Stuff happens. Read through build journals, watch videos see how people do things. Think about your capabilities and where your talents lie. Then you can have a better idea which path you want to take. Build some instruments first before thinking of the glamorous side of luthiery, fishing for customers. Build a ukulele. Get it playable. See how you feel after putting hours into building the little thing and people expecting you to sell it for the price of a factory Asian import.

[Sponserv]

These are exactly the replies I am looking for. Thanks

I am building a 30 x 40 shop and don't know whether to set it up as a wood shop or a car restoration shop. I know....I am blessed to have the problem of making that decision.

[Carpinteria]

I’ll comment from my own experience. I built a dulcimer many years ago and got hooked on the idea of building a guitar. However, I was clear that I had neither the skills nor tools to do so, so I build a dozen more dulcimers over a few years before tackling a guitar, and I was (more) ready by then. My son still has my first guitar, but the next few guitars I built for friends, charging them only the cost of materials. At my fifth guitar I started charging materials times two and that has become pretty much my standard rate for friends over, now, 40-some years. I am happy with the quality of my work (though there is always more and better to strive for, and there have been lots of ups and downs) and delighted that I have been able to provide my friends with good instruments. If I were doing it again, with the resources available these days, I would study with someone at least to some extent, as it would certainly speed the learning curve. Best wishes to you as you forge ahead! Dave

[Bruce Sexauer]

When I started I was playing in coffee houses and the like, and people would ask me about my guitar, and I would tell them I made it. It was hippie times, and there were festivals, and I attended them when I could. This was all I did that could be called marketing for the first 25 years of my career. It wasn’t really marketing at all, it was my lifestyle.

When I started advertising around 1995 I spent about $30k before I sold my first guitar as a result. I have yet to sell the second one and know it came from there. But I do have name recognition from doing that, and that caused dealers to take me seriously, though that is no longer as important as it was before the internet.

What actually works for me has been making the best guitars I can with no compromise whatsoever, and letting them and their owners do the talking. I do track which guitars represent me the most successfully, and there are a couple which have sold 8 to 10 more! I call them “ambassadors”.

So, my advice is two fold, 1, build the best you can and don’t rush it, it is not an easy thing to be good at, and it won’t happen overnight. And 2, share that you are doing it socially, from the heart. That’s what I doing right now.

[tadol]

Personally, I’d say drop the idea of lutherie, and consider just doing woodworking. If you want to build a guitar, but a kit, and hopefully your shop will be set up well enough to put it together. If you enjoy it, you can decide whether to build more kits, or buy rough prepped materials, or take a class and refine your skills. Or - you may discover you enjoy working with wood, and maybe you enjoy woodturning, or cabinetry, or marqetry, or bent laminations, or pyrography, or carving, or sculpture -

I enjoy working in my woodshop, but have realized that I enjoy lots of things besides building guitars, and that its much easier to buy an outstanding guitar than build one. That leaves me more time to practice learning how to play it, which is the real fun - ;-)

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Sponserv

If a person really loved guitars and wanted to learn to build them what would you suggest as far as a school/apprenticeship to learn the craft.

I realize that making a living as a luthier is not really feasible for numerous reasons. But if a person was retired and not really looking to make a living building and repairing stringed instruments how would one go about learning the trade?

First, recognize that making guitars and repairing guitars involve somewhat different skill sets. Lots of guitar makers don't do repairs and lots of repair people don't make guitars.

These days, there are vast resources available to learn how to build guitars and to repair them. There are schools where you can go, there are on-line video courses, there are many books, there are on-line forums and so on.

Four decades ago, I attended what was then the only public school of guitar making in North America. It was a great experience. I'd recommend attending a school to learn the basics of the craft. There are things that books, videos and other on-line formats just don't convey as well as being in person.

My next question relates to custom builders. With lots of schools of lutherie and the ability to buy all the tools and materials you need how does one get noticed as a custom builder? Do they just build the best pieces they can and go to the shows? Until they get noticed do they just build guitars and sell them to friends?

In general, in my opinion, this is a terrible time to attempt to make money making guitars. There are so many makers, domestic and imported, large and small, with whom you are competing. You will not be able to compete at the lower price ranges - in many cases, fairly decent Asian imports are retailing for what it will cost you for the materials: to compete, your labour would have to be free.

To get noticed in the sea of guitars and guitar makers, you need to do something that distinguishes you from everyone else. For example, Martin already makes Martins, and many, many people make copies of those. If you are making another Martin copy, how will yours be distinguishable from those already in the market?

Since you can't generally distinguish yourself by doing it cheaper, and you can't distinguish yourself by doing what others are already doing, that leaves distinguishing by "innovation". Even there, many people are already offering "innovations" to distinguish themselves. Some of what were once distinguishing features - the Manzer Wedge, the Laskin bevel ... - are now standard features on many makers' instruments, eliminating what was once a distinguishing feature for the original innovators. In some cases, it's a race to see who can "out-weird" the next guy.

On the other hand, there is a constant demand for guitar repair. To distinguish oneself there, one needs only to be good at it. Truly skilled repair people are in short supply in many geographical areas. Word-of-mouth of satisfied customers - and good skills - are really all that is necessary to grow your business.

[hermithollow]

Visit the Musical Instrument Makers forum and the Official Luthiers forum to find people with a similar addiction. They are "enablers".

[John Osthoff]

In my opinion, the best way to get good at something it to "do it." With so much information out there on the internet, it is much easier to learn processes than it was years ago. With this information in hand it is easy to get to a 'B' level quickly. It is much harder to get from B to B+. It takes time and experience. Get the chisel to the wood. Learn from mistakes. I have seem lots of experts out there who have only built a few guitars and while they may have a lot to offer, I would much rather learn from someone with loads experience.

I know the original post did not say anything about making money at the craft, but I like this question/answer someone offered me many years ago.

Question: How does someone make a million dollars building guitars?
Answer: Start with two million!

[Sponserv]

Again......I can't thank you enough for all the responses. Extremely insightful.

I may just buy a StewMac kit and see if I actually have the patience to even attempt a build.

I recently bought a bunch of measuring tools for doing setups and have really enjoyed doing that. The first time I dialed some relief into a neck and brought the action down I was thrilled!!!! (LOL. Sometimes its just the little things that make me smile)

I also bought a 45 year old Yamaha FG335 that is real close to needing a neck reset. I specifically targeted a Yamaha because I have read the epoxy they used will make this the most difficult neck reset of all. Might as well start with the worst. Then others will seem relatively simple.

Now all I have to do is tell my wife that a burglar must have stolen her cappuccino maker. LOL

Thanks again all.

[nootis]

Excellent question and thanks for posting. I too have delusions of grandeur of someday building guitars in my retirement. I'm still in the thick of it managing a business, but I have pipe dreams of selling it so I can afford to become a luthier.

I am however starting out by cheating, for I will be heading to Nacodoches soon to help build myself a guitar with Steve Kinnaird and Ryan Middlebrook. I am sure my perspective will be more clear upon my return.

[Bruce Sexauer]

Originally Posted by Sponserv

Again......I can't thank you enough for all the responses. Extremely insightful.

I may just buy a StewMac kit and see if I actually have the patience to even attempt a build.

I recently bought a bunch of measuring tools for doing setups and have really enjoyed doing that. The first time I dialed some relief into a neck and brought the action down I was thrilled!!!! (LOL. Sometimes its just the little things that make me smile)

I also bought a 45 year old Yamaha FG335 that is real close to needing a neck reset. I specifically targeted a Yamaha because I have read the epoxy they used will make this the most difficult neck reset of all. Might as well start with the worst. Then others will seem relatively simple.

Now all I have to do is tell my wife that a burglar must have stolen her cappuccino maker. LOL

Thanks again all.

I see you are joking . . . but not entirely, I think. So, seriously, DO NOT ATTEMT the neck reset on the Yamaha. It is not simply more difficult. Using typical methods it is impossible, if the neck was put on with epoxy. Instead of starting with the more challenging tasks, it is a good idea to begin by doing the tried and true. Nothing is easier to reset than a Martin made in the traditional way. Not the modern variants so much, but the traditional guitars. They are quite consistent, and the variables virtually always fall within the same parameters.

Many/most of the top builders today (IMO) build with their roots in the Martin tradition because it works so well and helps avoid so many of the common errors.

While many start with a kit, it will cause you to bypass many of the important lessons. The more processed the kit, the more missed opportunities to learn. Better in many ways is to learn about the ideal qualities of guitar appropriate wood and make a trip to the local hardwood lumber facility, and that far more satisfying as well. If that's not satisfying enough for you, buy a chainsaw and a pick up, if you don't have one, and head for the forest.

If you consider your reasons for being interested in lutherie, this may not sound so silly. I have made trips both north and south of the border chasing wood, and those experiences represent some of the best parts of my life as a luthier.

[Tim McKnight]

If you have aspirations of building and selling guitars then shipping them around the US or globe then it is imperative that you are able to accurately control the humidity of your shop, where your wood is stored and where work in process is staged. Being in FL the RH is much higher than say AZ. Your wood will seek normalization of its moisture content in its surroundings which may be upwards of 20% MC. If you build a guitar and give it to your next door neighbor then chances are it will be fine. However, if you ship your guitar to AZ where the RH is in the low single digits then it’s likely the guitar will be a wreck in a matter of a few days. It’s a sobering lesson to learn these pitfalls the hard way, one in which I am very familiar with.

[Simon Fay]

I live in New Smyrna -- you should try and stop by sometime.