How difficult to find good sets of Permanbuco?

fregly · #1 03-09-2021, 02:41 PM

I am discussing a build with a luthier, and am intrigued by Permanbuco from the enthusiasm for it in threads here. How difficult is it to find quartersawn, straight and stable sets, and what kind of premium can you expect to pay? What are the boarder restrictions? perhaps I cannot get the guitar into my country anyway.

Bruce Sexauer · #2 03-09-2021, 03:51 PM

Restrictions on international shipping of Pernambuco as a raw material are as extreme as on Brazilian rosewood, and more so in some ways. However, once turned into a musical instrument, the story is the opposite. Musical instruments made from pernambuco get a pass. You can thank the orchestral violinist community for this, as they convinced the powers that be that they MUST have their pernambuco bows. I don’t know which country you are in, and there may be restrictions for you I am unaware of.

Quarter-sawn straight grained guitar sets have become somewhat rare in any Tonewood lately, but in no wood more so that pernambuco. Wood database sites will tell you that pernambuco grows to a maximum diameter of 12”, which suggests that quarter sawn 8” wide material shouldn’t exist at all. But as among humans, there are giants among the pernambuco trees. This is good because of all the many woods I have made guitars from, pernambuco turns out to be the most prone to cracking where flat sawn due to dryness of any. I have made a half dozen from somewhat flat sawn, and 20 several from near perfect quarter sawn. ALL of my guitars with any part of the back flat sawn have cracked spontaneously, and not one of my quarter sawn guitars have done so, to my knowledge.

To me this is an obvious pattern, and although I do own flat sawn sets of pernambuco, I am now unwilling to build guitars with them. Fortunately, I also have several set of quarter sawn pernambuco. It took years of searching and putting out feelers to find it, and cost more hard cash than any other wood I’ve bought in my career, but it sounds like no other, and if it were only more common, I think it would be considered the one true holy grail Tonewood.

Good luck on your quest, it can be done.

fregly · #3 03-09-2021, 04:02 PM

Thanks Bruce, your assessment of the wood in other threads was one of the main reasons for my interest. I am afraid the upcharge will be prohibitive, whatever it ends up being. Regarding restrictions, I'm in Canada. I will have to look it up. The luthier in question has worked with Permanbuco before and managed to source good samples. He warned me it might be tough getting acceptable new sets.

justonwo · #4 03-09-2021, 04:56 PM

When I embarked on a similar quest a few years ago, I found it moderately difficult to get quartersawn sets. Not sure what pricing you can expect, but it’s not inexpensive.

Bill Kraus · #5 03-09-2021, 05:44 PM

If you are not adverse to a three piece back, which can be quite attractive if done in the Martin 35 style, or find a good luthier can do a multi piece back that is nearly invisible with quarter sawn wood, you may keep your costs down a bit, and open up your possibilities tremendously.

fregly · #6 03-09-2021, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Kraus

If you are not adverse to a three piece back, which can be quite attractive if done in the Martin 35 style, or find a good luthier can do a multi piece back that is nearly invisible with quarter sawn wood, you may keep your costs down a bit, and open up your possibilities tremendously.

This may end up being the only way. There should not be anything inferior about a three piece, should there?

ChuckS · #7 03-09-2021, 06:07 PM

I was able to find Pernambuco, but it was not simple, and it was 9 years ago.

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=250773

Bill Kraus · #8 03-09-2021, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fregly

This may end up being the only way. There should not be anything inferior about a three piece, should there?

Not in the least. Actually, a quarter sawn 3 or more piece set would be a benefit over a flat or rift sawn set, given what Mr. Sexauer has said about permanbuco's stability in a previous post.

Nemoman · #9 03-09-2021, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fregly

This may end up being the only way. There should not be anything inferior about a three piece, should there?

Definitely nothing inferior.

I have a 4-piece cocobolo back on one of my guitars. It's an amazing guitar, and I would even defy anyone to discern that it's a 4-piece.

fregly · #10 03-09-2021, 06:55 PM

Will a 3 or 4 piece be less expensive since it might be perceived (wrongly) as less desirable than a regular set in the guitar market, or is Permanbuco pricey either way? I just came across a luthier selling a set for an outrageous amount. My heart sank.

InsertNameHere · #11 03-09-2021, 07:17 PM

Pernambuco? I thought that was used only for the bows of bowed instruments. I looked up some YT videos and my ears pick up a lot of upper mids. Noy my ideal sound, but I'll be darned if it isn't a pretty wood.

tadol · #12 03-09-2021, 08:42 PM

There’s nothing wrong with a 3 or 4 piece back - whether its any less expensive is hard to say. 4 pieces of perfectly quartersawn pernambuco which are narrower than 2 pieces should be less expensive, but thats mostly because 2 pieces wide enough and perfectly qs will be very expensive, and not many places offer multi-piece back sets, since with most other woods its considered less desirable from an aesthetic viewpoint.

Pernambuco is an incredible tonewood - but there are more than a few really great tonewoods, so rather than pursuing a specific wood, pursue a builder that can create the guitar you want. If they have pernambuco, or can access it, great - but you may be expecting too much from a material, when the material choice should be more a joint agreement between you and the builder, with a good understanding of the tone and response you want from your instrument. You may be much better off allocating your build budget in other ways -

Bruce Sexauer · #13 03-09-2021, 09:53 PM

Pernambuco's chief advantage, IMO, is clarity. it make a full spectrum tonality without any mud at all, at least when I use it. For a performance guitar, tis is a terrific advantage if you're playing acoustic. Nothing in my experience can touch it. But for "player satisfaction" it isn't all good news. It is unforgiving, and if you have poor technique, you won't be able to hide. It you are an accomplished player, it gives you a wide palette and can be a boon to your art.

There is a great domestic wood that I am late to discovering. I blame a certain mid-size manufacturer for this as they took this material under wing and built many pretty guitars with it which failed to impress me sonically. Others have touted its virtues, however, and this last year I built a couple of guitars with Oregon Myrtle, and unless they are both "outside the box", this is a GREAT tonewood. Better than Walnut or Maple, in my fairly broad experience, and in subjective test with friends in my shop, a more complete tonal spectrum than any guitar I have on hand. Besides all that, it is a friendly sound, more forgiving of sloppiness while being a complete and satisfying sound.

Just sayin'. Not every tone-wood is right for every player., and it is difficult for the end user to come to grips with the parameters. My apologies for the plot twist.

fregly · #14 03-10-2021, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

Pernambuco's chief advantage, IMO, is clarity. it make a full spectrum tonality without any mud at all, at least when I use it. For a performance guitar, tis is a terrific advantage if you're playing acoustic. Nothing in my experience can touch it. But for "player satisfaction" it isn't all good news. It is unforgiving, and if you have poor technique, you won't be able to hide. It you are an accomplished player, it gives you a wide palette and can be a boon to your art.

There is a great domestic wood that I am late to discovering. I blame a certain mid-size manufacturer for this as they took this material under wing and built many pretty guitars with it which failed to impress me sonically. Others have touted its virtues, however, and this last year I built a couple of guitars with Oregon Myrtle, and unless they are both "outside the box", this is a GREAT tonewood. Better than Walnut or Maple, in my fairly broad experience, and in subjective test with friends in my shop, a more complete tonal spectrum than any guitar I have on hand. Besides all that, it is a friendly sound, more forgiving of sloppiness while being a complete and satisfying sound.

Just sayin'. Not every tone-wood is right for every player., and it is difficult for the end user to come to grips with the parameters. My apologies for the plot twist.

Well I was looking for something very transparent and clear, and technique sensitive (which I find a lot of guitars are not) and in descriptions this seems to be in Permanbuco, if the builder can bring it out of course. I find the steel string can be a wind up machine that just does its thing and the player can't control or add much.

justonwo · #15 03-10-2021, 10:19 AM

I'm a pragmatist, and despite my best intentions I have a least a lazy eye on the resale value of any instrument I commission. Why? Well, because not all custom builds end up being life-altering keepers. If you commission at pernambuco guitar, it may be hard to re-sell. If you get one with a three-piece back, it may be harder still.

That's not to discourage you from getting a pernambuco. I have to thank Bruce for introducing me to this wood. But be mindful of what you're getting into. The people that are aware of and appreciate this tonewood on flattop guitars are probably all members of this forum . . . and you can probably count them on your fingers and toes.