Modelers

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

Too bad the sounds didn't work out for you. But I'd suggest in future, if you decide to try a different modeling solution, it's best to cut to the chase right away and use the software/app right from the beginning on anything this complicated. For me at least, past a certain level of compexity (a level which FM3 far exceeds) there's no substitute for a large screen, keyboard and mouse. Or maybe that's just me.

I agree, Brent.

You may be amused to learn that Fractal has a 143-page Owner's Manual for the FM3 as well as separate a Blocks Guide and Footswitch Functions Guide. It has no such manual or guide for the FM3-Edit software. In fact, the existence of this software isn't even mentioned until page 15 of the Owner's Manual, after introducing the company's Fractal-Bot and Humbuster TRS cable. The unit also does not come with a USB cable.

Pretty clearly Fractal feels that its user base 'don't need no stinkin' software' to use the FM3.

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by AX17609

I agree, Brent.

You may be amused to learn that Fractal has a 143-page Owner's Manual for the FM3 as well as separate a Blocks Guide and Footswitch Functions Guide. It has no such manual or guide for the FM3-Edit software. In fact, the existence of this software isn't even mentioned until page 15 of the Owner's Manual, after introducing the company's Fractal-Bot and Humbuster TRS cable. The unit also does not come with a USB cable.

Pretty clearly Fractal feels that its user base 'don't need no stinkin' software' to use the FM3.

Amusing. And amazing.

[CASD57]

I'm going through the phase of amp-less....
Tried several units...Like others, life is too short to be tinkering all the time
Finally went back to a unit I'd had for several years but spent more time in a drawer than playing..
It was my Zoom G1Four
Now it is time to try it with my cheap PA Gemini PA300 To-Go Array... Sounded great!
But wait individual pedals sound better I'm told....
So I bought a pedal bag... Bought the Classic Rock Behringer pedal Pak plus the Graphic equalizer ..
And for an amp pedal I bought the Cadine CP-55 American pedal (Joyo American Clone)
Sounded great....through my PA

But did it sound better than my Zoom G1Four...Nope

So for a smaller footprint...ease of carry for gigging I'll stick with the Zoom

Now to reduce the footprint in my office... Who wants an Array in your office sure I can reduce the height to just one speaker tower(only real one)
But still trying to appease the wife ..happy wife-Happy life..so true

So I'm trying out two PA Speakers...
My setup is an Epiphone ES339 P90 LTD limited 2014...into the Zoom

The Alto TX310 Yes I did try out this speaker last summer outside..(Video on my YouTube page) and I liked it
Sizewise it's about as big as my shortened array but it can lay on its side and reduce the height and less noticeable by passing wifes LOL. And It sounds good..
$149
The next:
Monoprice "StageRight" D1 Battery-powered Portable PA Speaker System with Class D Amp and Bluetooth Streaming 6.5 co-ax speaker
$129
It sounds fine..not as clear as the Alto... and the 6.5 speaker has its limitations for a big sound....Love the battery power but not sure it's powerful enough for gigging.. But then I do run pretty quietly(stage) these days for a monitor this might be perfect as the Alto might be too much on a quiet stage...Sure you can turn it down

Probably the best would be to use the Alto in my Office and the StageRight as a stage monitor...


So you see this Modeler and the reason you want to go to one..is a big Rabbit Hole...

[AX17609]

Unable to just give up, I took Bob Womack's advice and ordered one of the Line 6 products. I'll probably be complaining about it in about two weeks.

[SaintClarence27]

Originally Posted by AX17609

Unable to just give up, I took Bob Womack's advice and ordered one of the Line 6 products. I'll probably be complaining about it in about two weeks.

Which product? I got the pod go fairly recently and am really happy with it.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by AX17609

Unable to just give up, I took Bob Womack's advice and ordered one of the Line 6 products. I'll probably be complaining about it in about two weeks.

My best advice:

"It is said, 'Go not to the elves for counsel for they will say both no and yes.' "
Frodo Baggins to Gildor Inglorion

“Is it indeed?” laughed Gildor. “Elves seldom give unguarded advice, for advice is a dangerous gift, even from the wise to the wise, and all courses may run ill.”

From The Fellowship of the Ring

Bob

[GCWaters]

I'll throw in my 2 cents worth.

A couple of years ago, I bought a Katana 50 watt. Ton of them out there and people seem to love them. It was a nice amp, but it was limited, both in terms of the amps modeled, the effects included, and how you control the effects.

So I sold it. And because I'm still a little Old School, I bought a Boss ME-90. I like that face that it works pretty much like regular effects pedals do. Originally, I ran it in front of my Princeton, as an effects unit only. That wasn't bad, but I was curious. So, after some experimenting, I ended up with a small mixer and two JBL powered studio monitors. Now I get the full amp modeling, the effects, and all at whatever volume I want.

And it works. It works very nicely. The tonal differences between the different amps is very clear, and I'm getting a really good idea of which effects I like, both across categories and within them. Eventually, I'll move on to using the software and seeing if tweaking things at that level is worth it to me.

I guess my point is that the Boss--or something like it--gives you the opportunity to get your toes in the water at a reasonable price point and at a reasonable level of complexity. I feel sure that what I learn at the tweaking level will transfer to the next modeling platform that I go to--and you know there's going to be a next level, right? I mean, how can there not be!!

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by SaintClarence27

Which product? I got the pod go fairly recently and am really happy with it.

A Pod Go. I realize it's the lowest of the low, but its essential features will tell me what I need to know about Line 6. Also, I was knocked out by Paul Hindmarsh's NAMM 2020 demo. It was on sale, and Amazon promises to take it back for any reason. They must be trying to clear out their inventory. If I hate it, I'll send it back and go a different direction. If I like it, I'll send it back and move up a rung or two on the technological ladder so I can hang around with the big kids. So far, what I can say for sure is that I like the manual. It appears to be written for musicians rather than audio engineers.

[SaintClarence27]

Originally Posted by AX17609

A Pod Go. I realize it's the lowest of the low, but its essential features will tell me what I need to know about Line 6. Also, I was knocked out by Paul Hindmarsh's NAMM 2020 demo. It was on sale, and Amazon promises to take it back for any reason. They must be trying to clear out their inventory. If I hate it, I'll send it back and go a different direction. If I like it, I'll send it back and move up a rung or two on the technological ladder so I can hang around with the big kids. So far, what I can say for sure is that I like the manual. It appears to be written for musicians rather than audio engineers.

I've found it to be pretty easy to work with, and I had next to no experience previously. The sounds available are basically the same as the ones all the way up the helix line, so that's what sold me. Good luck!

[jonfields45]

I've finally transitioned 100% to practicing and gigging using a Spark Go direct to the PA.

Pluses:

1. The Deluxe Reverb model sounds great clean and overdriven selected via my guitar's volume control.
2. It has its own battery.
3. It is extremely compact and takes little room in a gig bag.
4. The tuner is excellent and using the phone app as a display nicely visible in direct sunlight.
5. The phone app is not menu depth free, but something I can use at a gig.
6. I've discovered the stable settings requiring an app to change is now a feature (for me).
7. Cheap enough to consider disposable.

Minuses:

1. The Deluxe model sounds like it has the bright cap removed and a Celestian IR. My preference would be a Jenson or Oxford speaker and the bright cap in place.
2. The tone control modeling is not even close and I use the graphic EQ in some cases to make up for it.
3. Hall reverb, with too many knobs to turn (all at 12 o'clock and tweaking mix is fine for me), and no spring reverb.
4. The reverb mix is different internal speaker vs. line/headphone output.
5. The amp and effect parameters are kind of twitchy in the phone app and if you are OCD about 5, instead of 4.9 or 5.1, it is annoying.
6. It does not like tip and ring shorted together on its line/headphone output which many 3.5mm TRS to 1/4" TS or XLR mono have hardwired.
7. You need to remember to mute your phone if you don't want it coming through the PA.

If the Spark Go came decades before the Deluxe Reverb Amp, that amp wouldn't stand a chance. For OCD perfect modeling like a UA Dream 65, the Spark is not even close.

If you just need great tone in the ballpark of a classic amp, these low end modelers (the Fender Mustang Micro is another example) direct to the PA are a great way to go, if you can suppress your OCD :~).

[AX17609]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

I've finally transitioned 100% to practicing and gigging using a Spark Go direct to the PA.

Pluses:

1. The Deluxe Reverb model sounds great clean and overdriven selected via my guitar's volume control.
2. It has its own battery.
3. It is extremely compact and takes little room in a gig bag.
4. The tuner is excellent and using the phone app as a display nicely visible in direct sunlight.
5. The phone app is not menu depth free, but something I can use at a gig.
6. I've discovered the stable settings requiring an app to change is now a feature (for me).
7. Cheap enough to consider disposable.

Minuses:

1. The Deluxe model sounds like it has the bright cap removed and a Celestian IR. My preference would be a Jenson or Oxford speaker and the bright cap in place.
2. The tone control modeling is not even close and I use the graphic EQ in some cases to make up for it.
3. Hall reverb, with too many knobs to turn (all at 12 o'clock and tweaking mix is fine for me), and no spring reverb.
4. The reverb mix is different internal speaker vs. line/headphone output.
5. The amp and effect parameters are kind of twitchy in the phone app and if you are OCD about 5, instead of 4.9 or 5.1, it is annoying.
6. It does not like tip and ring shorted together on its line/headphone output which many 3.5mm TRS to 1/4" TS or XLR mono have hardwired.
7. You need to remember to mute your phone if you don't want it coming through the PA.

If the Spark Go came decades before the Deluxe Reverb Amp, that amp wouldn't stand a chance. For OCD perfect modeling like a UA Dream 65, the Spark is not even close.

If you just need great tone in the ballpark of a classic amp, these low end modelers (the Fender Mustang Micro is another example) direct to the PA are a great way to go, if you can suppress your OCD :~).

Those are great and insightful comments. Thank you!

As I've mentioned may times in the past, I'm a Spark 40 lover. I use the JTM45 emulator exclusively, but it took me a long time to get it dialed in. I had to learn a lot about the art of modeling to succeed. You can't just pull up a preset and go. You have to know what you're doing.

I'm surprised no one has written an authoritative treatise on how to dial in a modeler. It's more than just experimenting with a few knobs. For example, a real '59 Fender Bassman has 6 knobs and three switches, one of which is the on/off switch. Fractal's version of the same amp has more than 75 knobs and 15 switches buried in 10 menus. The Spark version is a good deal simpler, but it lacks a couple of desirable tone shaping features.

[abn556]

I may be too old school, but I want the bloom and swell of a good tube amp. I have owned many modelers over the years and always ended up getting rid of them. Most of them I gave away. Literally called a buddy who is a church music minister and said - “Do you need this Line 6? Great, come get it”. This is just an example. Gave a friend a Roland Cube 30. Gave my son a couple of modeling amps as well. Probably at least 8 modelers over the last 15 years. I am just not buying any more of them.

[edward993]

Long discussion here, and it's likely been said many times over in many different ways:

1. Modelers have gotten very good, and will get even better with time, so there is that; they are good if your gig situation calls for it
2. Modelers are a considerable expense that, like a smartwatch, has a definite point of obsolesce. Definite.

...which is fine if you're ok with spending that kind of dough for its utility, as bazillions seem to be with smart watches, for example. But I am not. My gear is old yet always useable and not ever dependent on whatever tech comes out. And my analog Citizen is maybe ten years old and works as good today as ever

So there ya go: as in all things "gear" some get what suits ya for the moment, and for others get what suits ya for the long haul.

Edward

[Brent Hutto]

Originally Posted by edward993

2. Modelers are a considerable expense that, like a smartwatch, has a definite point of obsolesce. Definite.

A 20 year old Fractal FM3 will be no more "obsolete" than a 20 year old Les Paul or a 20 year old Deluxe Reverb.

[Aspiring]

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

A 20 year old Fractal FM3 will be no more "obsolete" than a 20 year old Les Paul or a 20 year old Deluxe Reverb.

While I generally agree, the one thing most smart devices are likely to run into as they get to be over 10 years old is compatibility issues with their companion apps and hardware. This is something the old standalone equipment won't run into. On the other hand, with the onboard controls you will likely still have more functionality than an old style amp with none of that capability in the first place.

That said, it is likely that what is a high end product today like the axe fx3 will be functionally equivalent to a cheap Chinese pedal 10 years from now, not due to the current product being bad but by the state of the art moving forward so far in 10 years which means that buying a new one makes more sense than sticking with the old one.