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  #1  
Old 08-13-2018, 04:10 PM
Paultergeist Paultergeist is offline
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Default Difficulty Hearing My Lead Tone When the Band Plays....

Greetings,

This is not exactly an acoustic guitar question, but I wanted to solicit any helpful ideas form other players.

I have struggled -- for years -- with my electric lead guitar tone. The scenario typically unfolds such that I conduct a volume check of my amp and pedal settings prior to playing the gig, and everything seems plenty loud to my ears. I typically use a microphone to feed into the PA. Then the band plays, and I just do not seem so loud anymore. When a solo opportunity comes around, I stomp on whatever boost / overdrive I am using (I have several) and the lead guitar tone just kind of disappears into the band mix. I cannot hear myself. The sense of sound pressure is there -- in that I know the amp is working and adding to the loudness of the mix -- but I just cannot really hear distinct notes.

I have lost track of how long I have struggled with this. I have multiple guitars and stomp boxes; but none of them seem to solve the problem. In my quest to crack the code of this issue, I took to the hobby of building my own amps (based loosely upon Weber, Ceriatone, and Brown-Note kits). While I have successfully built functional and decent-sounding amps (I currently have [5] home-built tube amps), the fundamental problem of getting lost in the mix persists.

Recently, I have played in a band where the other guitarist has a Line 6 Helix feeding a Quilter amp along with a direct PA feed -- it is a very sophisticated set-up and I do not fully understand it. Somehow, this player has gotten a bright, chiming lead guitar sound / tone which punctuates the atmosphere and is discernable (at least to my ears) without being overly loud. I can't figure out how his rig -- designed to emulate a real tube amp -- is doing something that my real tube amps cannot....? It just doesn't make sense to me. This other player is trying to be helpful to me, but I am not sure that even he understands what is happening with his set-up.

Anyway, I am beyond frustrated, and will welcome any constructive thoughts.

Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 08-13-2018, 04:17 PM
YamahaGuy YamahaGuy is offline
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Is your band running into a larger PA system that sends everything through the larger Front of House speakers? And are there floor monitor wedges? Or do you use In Ear Monitors?

With monitors, any half way decent sound guy should be able to give you a mix that meets your needs to be able to hear YOU.

Without running monitors, maybe try moving away from the drums and/or rhythm guitarist.

I've been experimenting with multi-fx units and they can sound excellent. I just played an outdoor gig through several thousand watts and the multi-fx works very well that way. The mics on your amp have to be turned up to get enough of your amp, but the problem is those mics pick up the drums, OR JUST AS BAD THEY FEED BACK and cannot be turned up as high. With direct PA feeds, there are no feedback issues.
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  #3  
Old 08-13-2018, 06:09 PM
stevecuss stevecuss is offline
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Might need some more info to be truly helpful, but I'll take a stab:

-- Is the issue that you cannot hear your lead playing on stage or is it also that you are being told it is getting lost in the house?

Let's assume the second for now

-- What settings do you use on your overdrive? The answer to your problem might be counter intuitive. Back off the gain and boost the volume. Gain often compressors the tone into nothingness. Sounds great by itself, but disappears in a band.

-- Are able to cut through the band when you play a loud clean tone? If so, that reinforces my point above, I think. ie, Try with no pedals at all, and just keep cranking amp master volume (not gain.)

-- A Rat pedal or something with a decent mid hump might be the ticket. Again, less is more on the gain, but more is more on the volume!

-- You might also benefit from a 7 band Eq that you engage when it is solo time. More mids and highs might help.

-- Do you play humbuckers or single coil pickups?

-- Do you use a compressor? What other effects?

And it simply could be that your band is loud and so your sound check sounds loud but isn't loud enough when all the loud instruments play. You may simply need to add decibels and get all Spinal Tap on them.

Anyway, more specifics would help. You should absolutely be able to get a cutting tone from a tube amp with the right gear.
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Old 08-13-2018, 07:32 PM
muscmp muscmp is offline
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wow, i would agree with steve on this. but, i don't know, either, whether it is your ears or the house.

i would add that when you do the soundcheck, set your guitar's volume on 8. that way if you need, you can turn to 10.

play music!
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  #5  
Old 08-13-2018, 07:34 PM
B. Adams B. Adams is offline
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There's no reason a good tube amp shouldn't cut through. But it's not just about volume, EQ/tone and dynamics make a huge difference. How does it sound to the audience (and the sound guy)?

A lot of guitar players scoop some mids out of their tone, which can sound great on its own but gets covered up when it's competing with other instruments. The guitar is a midrange instrument, maybe you're pulling too much out.

When you solo, is the band making room for you at all? Or does the drummer ramp it up to 11 when it's time for your lead? Is the other guitar player doing something that competes with your guitar during your leads?

Also, can you actually hear your amp, or is it pointed at your knees? Your amp sounds a lot different in front of it than it does from 6' up. If you're miking your amp, aim it at your ears and let the PA do the work. Or if that's not practical for some reason, like maybe it's too loud or the form factor doesn't work, point it somewhere other than at the audience (and sound guy) and put more of it in your monitor. Guitar amps are very directional, so whoever it's pointed at is going to hear it really well.

One other thing, most bands sound check at an 8 and play the show at a 10. I always count on the band being a little bit louder once the show starts. Maybe you're staying at 8 while the rest of the guys are at 10 once the show starts.
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:15 PM
Paultergeist Paultergeist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YamahaGuy View Post
Is your band running into a larger PA system that sends everything through the larger Front of House speakers? And are there floor monitor wedges? Or do you use In Ear Monitors?
Thanks to everyone for the helpful replies.

I have never used IEMs, but this band does have a large "mains" PA system used in conjunction with several "wedge-type" floor monitors. It seems like the monitors mostly get vocals fed through them.
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:23 PM
stevecuss stevecuss is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
Thanks to everyone for the helpful replies.

I have never used IEMs, but this band does have a large "mains" PA system used in conjunction with several "wedge-type" floor monitors. It seems like the monitors mostly get vocals fed through them.
Righteo then. Here would be my order of trouble shooting:

-- Is your amp at ear height or at least pointing up toward your face and away from the sound guy?

-- During sound check, do you sound check your solo with full band playing? I send the previous post that said, 'people sound check at 8 and play at 10.' It could be that simple.

-- If, tragically, it is not that simple, then proceed to next step

-- BLAME the dummer. BLAME the bass player.

-- Then try lowering all your gains and raising all your 'volumes' on your drives. Hopefully you only have a drive or two.

-- After that, buy a RAT pedal and thank me later.

Or perhaps an EQ pedal....

-- And finally, bridge pickup setting for lead to try your last attempt at cutting through. If that doesn't work, only pyrotechnics and windmill strumming can save you.
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  #8  
Old 08-13-2018, 09:28 PM
Paultergeist Paultergeist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevecuss View Post
-- Is the issue that you cannot hear your lead playing on stage or is it also that you are being told it is getting lost in the house?
Primarily the issue is that i cannot seem to hear myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevecuss View Post
-- What settings do you use on your overdrive? The answer to your problem might be counter intuitive. Back off the gain and boost the volume. Gain often compressors the tone into nothingness. Sounds great by itself, but disappears in a band.
Yes.....my tone "disappears." I use a Fulltone OCD as my primary "dirt pedal" these days (but I have owned and tried several different ones to try and deal with this), along with a Wampler Tumnus as a boost for some solos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevecuss View Post
-- Are able to cut through the band when you play a loud clean tone? If so, that reinforces my point above, I think. ie, Try with no pedals at all, and just keep cranking amp master volume (not gain.)
While playing clean doesn't not completely solve the issue, it DOES make the issue much better. When doing clean-playing rhythm guitar parts, I have the LEAST amount of trouble, and can hear myself best. The clean guitar, however, just doesn't work well for a Santana / Journey / G-n-R guitar solo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevecuss View Post
-- A Rat pedal or something with a decent mid hump might be the ticket. Again, less is more on the gain, but more is more on the volume!
Gosh, I have owned quite a few overdrive / dirt pedals.....they manly seem pretty similar to me. I have never tried a "Rat," however. I DO set the mids high on my EQ to try to be heard over the mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevecuss View Post
-- You might also benefit from a 7 band Eq that you engage when it is solo time. More mids and highs might help.
I have an Empress Para-EQ pedal right now......I admit it seems pretty complicated.....still figuring it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevecuss View Post
-- Do you play humbuckers or single coil pickups?
Almost entirely humbuckers. PRS style guitar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stevecuss View Post
-- Do you use a compressor? What other effects?
No compressor. When I tried to use a compressor, it made the problem worse in my opinion. Very few other effects on only a couple of other songs. Mostly, I simply want: clean rhythm, clean-ish lead; dirty rhythm, dirty/gain-y lead.......but I need to hear myself better.
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  #9  
Old 08-13-2018, 09:38 PM
Paultergeist Paultergeist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Adams View Post
There's no reason a good tube amp shouldn't cut through. But it's not just about volume, EQ/tone and dynamics make a huge difference.
That is what I am thinking. There is *something* about the other guitarist's tone which really does cut through. His sound seems more clear, present, forward, chime-y, all while maintaining a nice aggressive overdrive, compression and sustain which works well for rock music. I just cannot figure out what I am missing. I have been goofing around with pickups, tubes, way too many pedals, several different amps.......I feel like I always sound like......me.......and not in a good way. My tone is murky, shy, just below the surface somehow, like a muffled background noise where when your neighbor is playing their stereo way too loud and you can hear through the walls of the apartment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Adams View Post
A lot of guitar players scoop some mids out of their tone, which can sound great on its own but gets covered up when it's competing with other instruments. The guitar is a midrange instrument, maybe you're pulling too much out.
I do not intnetially scoop mods at all. Unless the circuitry of the amp itself is doing that.....?

Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Adams View Post
When you solo, is the band making room for you at all? Or does the drummer ramp it up to 11 when it's time for your lead? Is the other guitar player doing something that competes with your guitar during your leads?
The other guitar player definitely holds back when it is my turn to solo. The other folks are less consistent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by B. Adams View Post
Also, can you actually hear your amp, or is it pointed at your knees? Your amp sounds a lot different in front of it than it does from 6' up. If you're miking your amp, aim it at your ears and let the PA do the work. Or if that's not practical for some reason, like maybe it's too loud or the form factor doesn't work, point it somewhere other than at the audience (and sound guy) and put more of it in your monitor. Guitar amps are very directional, so whoever it's pointed at is going to hear it really well.
Well, that is an issue. It is pointed at my knees from behind. This particular band is crowded, and in order to fit on the stage, I have singer in front of me. If I raise the amp on a stand, it is pointed at her mic. But you are right, and these amps are directional.
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  #10  
Old 08-13-2018, 09:39 PM
Paultergeist Paultergeist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevecuss View Post
Righteo then. Here would be my order of trouble shooting:

-- Is your amp at ear height or at least pointing up toward your face and away from the sound guy?

-- During sound check, do you sound check your solo with full band playing? I send the previous post that said, 'people sound check at 8 and play at 10.' It could be that simple.

-- If, tragically, it is not that simple, then proceed to next step

-- BLAME the dummer. BLAME the bass player.

-- Then try lowering all your gains and raising all your 'volumes' on your drives. Hopefully you only have a drive or two.

-- After that, buy a RAT pedal and thank me later.

Or perhaps an EQ pedal....

-- And finally, bridge pickup setting for lead to try your last attempt at cutting through. If that doesn't work, only pyrotechnics and windmill strumming can save you.
Good ideas! Thanks very much!
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  #11  
Old 08-13-2018, 09:49 PM
stevecuss stevecuss is offline
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A PRS Humbucker Guitar into an OCD pedal with too much gain = compressed thick sound.

Also, I noted that you have built your own amps. That's way cool! I built an 18 Watt Plexi clone a few years ago and it was a great experience.

But that may have triggered the issue - you may need more watts in your live gig to hear yourself.
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If I played as much as I read threads, I'd be a pro....
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  #12  
Old 08-13-2018, 09:51 PM
stevecuss stevecuss is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
That is what I am thinking. There is *something* about the other guitarist's tone which really does cut through. His sound seems more clear, present, forward, chime-y, all while maintaining a nice aggressive overdrive, compression and sustain which works well for rock music.
Oh, sorry two more questions:

1) What amp/wattage does your other guitarist play?

2) What is his opinion on what the problem is?

and bonus

3) What happens when you switch rigs? Does the problem reverse or follow you?
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Maton 75th Anniversary OM
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Line 6 Helix.

If I played as much as I read threads, I'd be a pro....
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Old 08-13-2018, 09:57 PM
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Sounds like you need a good amplifier, and not more pedals.
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:56 AM
Song Song is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aknow View Post
Sounds like you need a good amplifier, and not more pedals.
Yep. Follow your friend down the Quilter path and direct out for some pa power.
I also have the 12" HD extension with mine. Adds another 3-4 dB...

Last edited by Song; 07-08-2019 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 08-14-2018, 04:09 AM
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Mr. Jelly Mr. Jelly is offline
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There are different ways to accomplish what you are trying to do..
1) Use a small amp set it about ear high, turn up and mic it.
2) A good 40 watt amp with mid-range like a Marshall Blues Breaker and no peddles. The mid-range cuts through.
3) Old school Fender amp turned up with the bass turned down and no peddles. In a band situation it sounds better than you think.

I've seen really good guitarists crap out on stage because they don't run their sound for a band situation. Like switching to all kinds of different sounds and gains only to be lost to everybody. What sounds good with just a guitar most likely won't work on stage. What sounds good on stage might not sound good to the room. Gain and compression are killers.
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