The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 08-05-2022, 10:56 AM
Snorse Snorse is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,938
Default Fishman Powertap Earth compared with Sunrise and K&K

I made this video for another thread, but I figured it may help anyone trying to figure these things out in the future via the search function, so I've given it it's own spot here.

The Sunrise and K&K is a classic D.I.Y. dual source that's been around forever (often with the Trance Amulet or similar in the days before K&K popularity).

The Powertap Earth is Fishman's 'out of the box' answer for players looking for that kind of sound and capability with minimal installation hassles.

Excuse my fat-fingered (if enthusiastic) playing and amateur video skills, but I tried to cover as much as I could:

Both guitars are Avalons in the exact same tone woods, just slightly different body sizes (1" smaller lower bout and differently shaped upper bout on the A32).

__________________
Rick

Yamaha MIJ CJX32
Avalon L32
Avalon A32 Legacy
Lowden 022
Gibson J-185
Takamine TNV360sc
Cole Clark Fat Lady 3
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-05-2022, 12:27 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Rochester, New York
Posts: 10,471
Default

Thanks, Rick, very informative demos! Your amplified guitars sound excellent and your nice playing demonstrates the various pickup combos and tones well. It sure sounds like you've found great amplified tone!
__________________
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/Ultra Tonic
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-05
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R Tommy Emmanuel/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Ovation Elite Plus
Avian Skylark 2A
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-05-2022, 03:40 PM
Snorse Snorse is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,938
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
Thanks, Rick, very informative demos! Your amplified guitars sound excellent and your nice playing demonstrates the various pickup combos and tones well. It sure sounds like you've found great amplified tone!
Thank you. It's a never ending quest, and I doubt it's over! I do find the mag/sbt combo 'easiest' to use live... the response, clarity and 'size' makes it fun to play out, whereas UST and such used to make it a struggle.
__________________
Rick

Yamaha MIJ CJX32
Avalon L32
Avalon A32 Legacy
Lowden 022
Gibson J-185
Takamine TNV360sc
Cole Clark Fat Lady 3
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-05-2022, 08:26 PM
firelakekid2 firelakekid2 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 219
Default

Hey Snorse, Great video. Enjoyed watching. Liked your playing. Very interesting.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-06-2022, 12:41 AM
hann's Avatar
hann hann is offline
I miss the USA!
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Singapore
Posts: 2,405
Default

Wow Iím liking what Iím hearing
__________________
Present:
2006 GSRS w PWM/Wavelength
1992 Taylor 410
Headway Audio EDB-1 Preamp
Countryman Type85

Past:
Alvarez MF80C (was sad to see this one go...)
K&K XLR preamp
K&K powermix trinity
Zaolla
Baggs PADI
Stillwater acoustic amp

Future:
1940s D45
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-06-2022, 02:33 AM
[email protected] takis.saro@gmx. is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2022
Posts: 3
Default

Hallo Rick,

i had a simular rig in the 90s with a sunrise but with a inside De Byl Micsystem.
With 2 Custommade Preamps, it was a rich sounding system, but i was allways
tweaking.
The Fishman has the right Buffer/Preamp close to the Source, the K&K and the
Sunrise might be a little missmatched. And dont forget all those inside system-
preamps have mostly an EQ and Compressed signal inside, which might sound
pleasend in the begining. I found often it lacks headroom and if i want to change the sound it started to get comlicated.
Beside Phase, i realized that the problem was the different timing the pickups had. the sunrise was fast, but the mic needed a little more time to sound full, like the acoustic guitar does.
Today i use an inside mic with a custom preamp/eq in one guitar and on the other guitar just the mag pickup. I use a Headway SAM-1 which has a inside Preamp/EQ with real Headroom. i dont combine them anymore, so i get the best sound out of one system and not some mixed UBER guitar sound, which allways sounded, even with high headroom, to procced.

But in the end it is what make you and your guitar work.

Takis
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-06-2022, 07:55 AM
Methos1979's Avatar
Methos1979 Methos1979 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Seacoast, NH
Posts: 6,813
Default

Great demo, Rick. Thanks for taking the time. I find I liked the Sunrise/K&K a bit better but the ease of the Fishman would make it a great choice.

I wonder how both compared to the sound of the Cole Clark FL3, if you've done any comparison. I used to own Cole Clark guitars and they were the best sounding pickup system I've ever used.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-06-2022, 01:27 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,108
Default

I thought I would post here vs. the original thread! First off, thank you very much for taking the time to do this. I really do appreciate these videos. As you know, pickups can be a bit of a trap. You never know what they will sound like until you try them and then once you do, it's not always easy to return them or sell them used. I have a box in my basement with about ten different pickups in it. Videos like this do make the process that much more easy though!

It was a bit difficult at times to truly hear the characteristics of the pickup as your unplugged tone was coming through quite a bit, but I listened with headphones and to me, the Tap sensor felt like it was far more resonant than the K&K. It sounded like the whole guitar came alive. I am not sure if this would be a feedback issue live, but the Tap sensor felt like a well eq'd K&K, which is a great thing. I have never been a big sound hole pickup guy, but that Powertap Earth is one incredible sounding system!

I think I will give the PowerTap Infinity a try. I like the immediacy of a UST, but have aways wanted a SBT to add in for more of a natural tone. My hope is that I can still add the Tonedexter or Aura to my signal either in mono, or in stereo with just the UST being impacted. I know Fishman recommends that the Tap sensor be glued in, but it comes with adhesive and it seems like most people I have spoken to who installed this system, simply used the adhesive and avoided the glue. Thats something that's very appealing!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-06-2022, 03:03 PM
Snorse Snorse is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,938
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by firelakekid2 View Post
Hey Snorse, Great video. Enjoyed watching. Liked your playing. Very interesting.
Thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hann View Post
Wow Iím liking what Iím hearing
Thank you my friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Hallo Rick,

.....

But in the end it is what make you and your guitar work.

Takis
Thank you Takis. Yes, I love the SAM-1 too, I have one in my J185 and I run that alone in that guitar, which I use on the odd occasion when I play acoustic in a full band. I don't like it run alone, and it has a similar issue to the Baggs M line of pickups when used in a dual source: the looser, top-sensing, humbucking coil is wired out of phase to the other in order to cancel feedback. This means that you absolutely can't get it to be fully in-phase with a second source. It can sound good, sure, but it's not complete.

I hear you on the attack transient issue... but that's actually what I'm looking for. That nanoseconds of delay in response fattens the sound up for me, and although it's tough to show in a video, at large volume the way you vary your attack can make these differences more or less noticeable. I use that effect when playing solo as a way to sound bigger than just me.

Thanks so much for the info though, you are clearly very experienced with your live sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Methos1979 View Post
Great demo, Rick. Thanks for taking the time. I find I liked the Sunrise/K&K a bit better but the ease of the Fishman would make it a great choice.

I wonder how both compared to the sound of the Cole Clark FL3, if you've done any comparison. I used to own Cole Clark guitars and they were the best sounding pickup system I've ever used.
No worries, and thanks for watching!

My son gigs the Cole Clarke now, with his teenage band that also has a cellist and a DJ!

It sounds great live, for sure, but it still has the piezo UST sound to some extent, and while it's superb for cutting through a band or doing more traditional acoustic strumming (it's a great plugged in strummer), for the percussive and somewhat polyphonic style I aspire to, it needs a mag or similar that doesn't get 'thinner' when you really pluck at it.

I might compare them soon on another video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petty1818 View Post
I thought I would post here vs. the original thread! First off, thank you very much for taking the time to do this. I really do appreciate these videos. As you know, pickups can be a bit of a trap. You never know what they will sound like until you try them and then once you do, it's not always easy to return them or sell them used. I have a box in my basement with about ten different pickups in it. Videos like this do make the process that much more easy though!

It was a bit difficult at times to truly hear the characteristics of the pickup as your unplugged tone was coming through quite a bit, but I listened with headphones and to me, the Tap sensor felt like it was far more resonant than the K&K. It sounded like the whole guitar came alive. I am not sure if this would be a feedback issue live, but the Tap sensor felt like a well eq'd K&K, which is a great thing. I have never been a big sound hole pickup guy, but that Powertap Earth is one incredible sounding system!

I think I will give the PowerTap Infinity a try. I like the immediacy of a UST, but have aways wanted a SBT to add in for more of a natural tone. My hope is that I can still add the Tonedexter or Aura to my signal either in mono, or in stereo with just the UST being impacted. I know Fishman recommends that the Tap sensor be glued in, but it comes with adhesive and it seems like most people I have spoken to who installed this system, simply used the adhesive and avoided the glue. Thats something that's very appealing!
Hey no worries! I know what you mean RE the unplugged sound. I don't currently have a way to isolate the recording of the pickup via the PA or amp, sadly, so it is a bit of a trade-off, although you can hear somewhat the frequencies that 'fill in' around me when I turn up, I think, and the main thing we were all curious about in the other thread was how different the TAP sounded from the K&K.

I think it's very fair to say that the K&K is more feedback-prone than the TAP, despite how lively the latter is. Honestly I've been able to walk right up to a BOSE L1 with a sub and I have to 'try' to get feedback. That is unless you roll the sensor in on the mag channel too (this effectively gives you two instances of TAP signal, one along with the mag, the other discrete). Then it gets hairy, but you'd not really want to run it that way anyway as it doesn't sound good... gets kind of fizzy and treble-heavy that way.

I've glued my sensor in... I had it on the adhesive for the first couple of weeks as I tested it, and then I decided to glue it because I'm so 'thumpy'! Honestly, I perceive it to be more lively after gluing, but it may be psychological.

I think you're on to something with your Powertap Infinity idea. I honestly think that the Powertap Earth will be my go-to for a while now.
__________________
Rick

Yamaha MIJ CJX32
Avalon L32
Avalon A32 Legacy
Lowden 022
Gibson J-185
Takamine TNV360sc
Cole Clark Fat Lady 3
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-06-2022, 09:31 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4,108
Default

The one downside of this pickup is that it doesn't seem to be in stock at any of the Canadian dealers I usually purchase from. I have a two week trip to Europe coming up in a week as well, but once I return, I will order and try the PowerTap Infinity. Might be a bit of a wait, but I will definitely report back with my thoughts.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Acoustic Amplification

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=