Reverb Compression= Ducking?

[AcousticDreams]

Just today I received an email from LiquidSonics using a new term for me, Ducking.
"Ducking is a very powerful tool that helps you improve clarity of a reverb by tucking the wet away until a musical phrase has ended, the reverb simply floods in to fill the space rather than competing with the instrument itself."

After viewing their new video it explains that Ducking is adding compression to the reverb. A very interesting concept.

*I would like to know who among us has tried and or is using this technique? And if so can you describe your technique for doing so.
*Is this something that is commonly used these days.
*And a bit a history on this subject matter would nice as well...when did this technique first come into use?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtwCPMy12G4

I am hoping I am not duplicating a discussion we have had before.

[j3ffr0]

I've heard of it, in different contexts than this one. Such as ducking the bass every time the bass drum hits. Or ducking a guitar or horn every time the singer sings. in principle I think you put a compressor in front of the signal to be ducked (in this case the verb). Set the side chain input on the compressor to the source that you want to use to trigger the ducking (in this case the guitar). When the guitar eases up, then the compression on the verb eases up, and so the level of the verb goes up and it is no longer "ducked".

I have been curious to try ducking the bass.... I would have never though of ducking the verb!

[Bob Womack]

I have never found a way to used ducking on reverb that made me comfortable. It probably comes down to the fixed release setting and (usually) ducking depth, which don't match different musical activities. What I've done in recording, and in fact used in a mix last week, was to automate the reverb send for a channel. I open a reverb send automation lane and either use a fader or the mouse to manipulate the reverb send for the channel. This allows me to pull down the reverb when complex material is happening that might generate too much reverb activity and then bring it back up when the material comes to a held end-of phrase note. HERE is an example. Listen for it on the lap steel. Whenever there is melodic activity I pull the reverb down. At the end of each phrase on the held notes I ramped the reverb send back up.

Bob

[jim1960]

I suppose for reverb heavy projects ease of ducking would hold quite a bit of value but for the majority of us doing acoustic guitar based music, I'm doubtful it would be of much use even when incorporating vocals, bass, drums, and a few other instruments.

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

After viewing their new video it explains that Ducking is adding compression to the reverb. A very interesting concept.

I tend to think of it more like a reverse gate in that it only lets the reverb through when a level falls below a given point.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

I have never found a way to used ducking on reverb that made me comfortable. It probably comes down to the fixed release setting and (usually) ducking depth, which don't match different musical activities. What I've done in recording, and in fact used in a mix last week, was to automate the reverb send for a channel. I open a reverb send automation lane and either use a fader or the mouse to manipulate the reverb send for the channel. This allows me to pull down the reverb when complex material is happening that might generate too much reverb activity and then bring it back up when the material comes to a held end-of phrase note. HERE is an example. Listen for it on the lap steel. Whenever there is melodic activity I pull the reverb down. At the end of each phrase on the held notes I ramped the reverb send back up.

Bob

With the utmost of sincerity....that is an awesome mix! Everything stands out and can be defined so clearly.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

With the utmost of sincerity....that is an awesome mix! Everything stands out and can be defined so clearly.

Thank you kindly! That song was from an album I recorded and co-produced twelve years ago. I also played guitar on the album. The guitars are a Gretsch Electromatic G5715 lap steel and a G&L S-500 Strat. The G&L was played through a Hughes & Kettner Tube Rotosphere for Leslie "Chorale" effect.

Bob

[KevWind]

Yes I got the same e-mail about Ducking a new feature only on the Seventh Heaven Pro version.

But I also have never used it on reverb (I have as mentioned used it for ducking the Bass guitar when the Kick Drum hits )
Like Bob mentioned I have (only a few times) automated either the send level or the volume level, on the on parallel reverb track itself ,, in particularly busy parts of a multi instrument mix

[DupleMeter]

Ducking can be really useful when a client wants a huge reverb, but you want to retain a lot of clarity & not fill up the negative space of mix.

I do a bit of recording/mixing work in the CCM/Contemporary Christian Music world, where big reverbs are still a thing. I tend to duck the reverbs in these mixes to keep things from getting messy. The trick is to find the sweet spot for release time on the compressor so you don't even realize ducking is taking place.

Here's an example where I ducked main vocal reverb 4-5dB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm-7...oHEPsp&index=1

LiquidSonics had me do some videos for them - here are 2 other reverb tricks they asked me to share:

Vocal reverb trick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rcU...oHEPsp&index=5

Drum reverb trick: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBD0...oHEPsp&index=4

[min7b5]

Just upgraded to the Seventh Heaven Pro version today in fact. I played around the ducking for a few minutes with some sparse solo guitar stuff and loved it. I've used ducking a few times before with sends, but this seems way better somehow.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Ducking can be really useful when a client wants a huge reverb, but you want to retain a lot of clarity & not fill up the negative space of mix.

I do a bit of recording/mixing work in the CCM/Contemporary Christian Music world, where big reverbs are still a thing. I tend to duck the reverbs in these mixes to keep things from getting messy. The trick is to find the sweet spot for release time on the compressor so you don't even realize ducking is taking place.

Here's an example where I ducked main vocal reverb 4-5dB: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm-7...oHEPsp&index=1

Beautiful song and mix. Yes, I can hear how the vocal stays clearer and still has the reverb. Very interesting concept and gives me lots to think about.

Also the Piano was very nice. Do you know what program she was using? Or was that a program built into that specific keyboard?

Originally Posted by min7b5

Just upgraded to the Seventh Heaven Pro version today in fact. I played around the ducking for a few minutes with some sparse solo guitar stuff and loved it. I've used ducking a few times before with sends, but this seems way better somehow.

Would love to hear your examples of how you used it Eric.

Ducking could possibly offer the best of both worlds? Adding of lush reverbs but limiting them so they keep the definition of guitar.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Beautiful song and mix. Yes, I can hear how the vocal stays clearer and still has the reverb. Very interesting concept and gives me lots to think about.

Also the Piano was very nice. Do you know what program she was using? Or was that a program built into that specific keyboard?

That was a combination of her DI’d keyboard sound from the Nord & my post processing for the mix. I didn’t add any samples. It was a while back, but if I recall I had a good amount of compression on there (1176 I believe), some EQ, a reverb & a delay, with a fair amount of saturation. I could pull up the Session & check if you’re interested in specifics.

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Adding of lush reverbs but limiting them so they keep the definition of guitar.

Yup. If you have a busy part I think the effect might get lost. But if things are sparse, kinda of coming and going, my thinking is this will add both dimension and immediacy, which is very attractive to me. I'm starting an album for another guitarist that with be very spacious, almost a minimalist classical Ala ECM kinda thing, and I'm thinking this will be perfect. One of my favorite Youtube tutorial guys, Daniel Dettwiler (who has mixed for ECM), gets into using ducking in this great video https://youtu.be/yxoq5nCAvHI BTW, ducking and other extras aside, the Seventh Heaven Pro is pretty incredible sounding reverb plugin

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by min7b5

Yup. If you have a busy part I think the effect might get lost. But if things are sparse, kinda of coming and going, my thinking is this will add both dimension and immediacy, which is very attractive to me. I'm starting an album for another guitarist that with be very spacious, almost a minimalist classical Ala ECM kinda thing, and I'm thinking this will be perfect. One of my favorite Youtube tutorial guys, Daniel Dettwiler (who has mixed for ECM), gets into using ducking in this great video https://youtu.be/yxoq5nCAvHI BTW, ducking and other extras aside, the Seventh Heaven Pro is pretty incredible sounding reverb plugin

The way I think about it is the opposite. When the music gets busy I have less mix space, so that's when ducking becomes an option for me. If the mix is sparse, there isn't a lot of reason to be clearing space, provided I set the reverb up well & chose an appropriate space for the sound. That's when I rely more on pre-delay & post EQ to keep things behaving.

Of course, there are no rules...so these are just how I think about it.

And yes, LiquidSonics reverbs are amazing. I pretty much only use Seventh Heaven Pro & Cinematic Rooms Pro these days. Of course, that may not mean as much...since I do endorse them...but I wouldn't endorse them if I didn't believe in them & find them to be the best option I've found to date.

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

The way I think about it is the opposite. When the music gets busy I have less mix space, so that's when ducking becomes an option for me.

Very cool. I guess to my ear with solo guitar I just mostly want that closeness, but in the spaces between phrases get a little more of that sense of depth with the reverb tale. Kind of how the aforementioned Daniel Dettwiler talks about in the video linked above with vocals.. Lots of cool things to do with it.

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Of course, there are no rules...
.

True that

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by min7b5

Very cool. I guess to my ear with solo guitar I just mostly want that closeness, but in the spaces between phrases get a little more of that sense of depth with the reverb tale.

Oh, you need to try Cinematic Rooms for that kind of reverb. Try the "Splashy Studio" preset and adjust the RT60 time to taste.

I use that for creating a sense of real space when I want the articulation of the instrument, but in a space that feels real. It seems to create a 3-D image where you can close your eyes and picture the room the music is being played in.