Luthier Recordings

[Mark Hatcher]

Luthier Recording Samples.

It's easy to take nice pictures of guitars being made and finished but, I've had a rough road understanding which way to go for recording sound clips that show my work.

I tried to do "raw" recordings with lower end equipment so it doesn't look like it is more about the equipment than the guitar.
I haven't been able to capture the nuances of sound distinguishing one guitar from another that I can easily hear when the guitars are in my hands.

I've decided to invest in much better recording equipment with the goal of being able to capture the difference in sound between say a Mahogany backed guitar and a Walnut one of the same model.
Something I could A B a comparison that can be heard with reasonable listening equipment and be an accurate presentation of what my guitars actually sound like.

I have professional level camera equipment and I sell a lot of very pretty guitars partly because of that. Of course, that always begs the question "Do they sound as good as they look?"
I want recording equipment that can represent and sell my guitars like my camera does.

Matched set of Earthworks SR40 mics
On-Stage MY700 x y stereo bar
Tama Iron Works Stands
Mogami Gold Studio cables
UA Apollo X4 interface
Thunderbolt 3 connection
Dell 15 XPS laptop
Ableton Live DAW
Beyerdynamics DT990 headphones
Beyerdynamics DT1770 Pro headphones (on the way)
Master Handbook of Acoustics 6th edition (god help me)

I started this thread to show my journey, take questions on my decisions and hear suggestions from those kind enough to share.

Thanks,
Mark
Hatcher Guitars

[jim1960]

An important part of any recording is the space where it happens. You've mentioned nothing about that.

[Mark Hatcher]

Originally Posted by jim1960

An important part of any recording is the space where it happens. You've mentioned nothing about that.

Master Handbook of Acoustics 6th edition was the last item on my list. Have you read that jim1960?

I am trying to learn and implement any needed changes to the room. I am not looking for a good sounding room and am shooting for a no sounding room (that is no room sound). Now I know I don't want an acoustically dead room. I know the room needs some neutral life.

I have taken advice from an acoustic engineer who is in our Granite State Luthiers group and will be doing some room testing.
The folks at Earthworks have also taken an interest in what I am trying to accomplish here and I've had one of their engineers over to listen to the room
and he has volunteered to help out recording.

One of the reasons I went with the Earthworks SR40s was their strong rejection of off axis noise. Another plus is they have reduced proximity effect so they sound good right up close. Both of these things help reduce room effect.

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Mark Hatcher

Master Handbook of Acoustics 6th edition was the last item on my list. Have you read that jim1960?

I've read a bunch of books on the subject over the years but I don't think I've read that one.

Originally Posted by Mark Hatcher

I am trying to learn and implement any needed changes to the room. I am not looking for a good sounding room and am shooting for a no sounding room (that is no room sound). Now I know I don't want an acoustically dead room. I know the room needs some neutral life.

Soundproofing and deadening is an expensive undertaking. I suspect you're really just going to minimize the influence of the room, something most home recordists try to do.

Originally Posted by Mark Hatcher

I have taken advice from an acoustic engineer who is in our Granite State Luthiers group and will be doing some room testing.
The folks at Earthworks have also taken an interest in what I am trying to accomplish here and I've had one of their engineers over to listen to the room
and he has volunteered to help out recording.

One of the reasons I went with the Earthworks SR40s was their strong rejection of off axis noise. Another plus is they have reduced proximity effect so they sound good right up close. Both of these things help reduce room effect.

It sound like you have some knowledgeable people involved. It's always better to figure these things out in person than a forum.

Earthworks makes a good product. I've owned an SR30 for 15 years or so. It's a great mic and I'm happy to hear they're lending a hand ...or an ear, as it may be. Keep us updated on what they suggest. I'm very interested in hearing about it.

[rick-slo]

What you hear yourself while playing is quite a bit different than what the mikes hear. Getting used to that from listening to recordings you have made of those guitar in itself helps tell guitars apart.

A well acoustically treated room helps recording consistency overall but raw recordings can be rather dry. Most guitar recordings people listen to have been tweaked post recording for a better sound.

[Mark Hatcher]

Originally Posted by jim1960

Soundproofing and deadening is an expensive undertaking. I suspect you're really just going to minimize the influence of the room, something most home recordists try to do.

It sound like you have some knowledgeable people involved. It's always better to figure these things out in person than a forum

Earthworks makes a good product. I've owned an SR30 for 15 years or so. It's a great mic and I'm happy to hear they're lending a hand ...or an ear, as it may be. Keep us updated on what they suggest. I'm very interested in hearing about it.

Thank you for the input jim1960. My recording room is a very quiet room in a very quiet location so I don’t need to worry much about soundproofing. I’ll do what needs to be done in the room so it does not unduly characterize the recordings
I am fortunate to have some good folks stepping up to help me with this.
As you say to lend and ear!

Originally Posted by rick-slo

What you hear yourself while playing is quite a bit different than what the mikes hear. Getting used to that from listening to recordings you have made of those guitar in itself helps tell guitars apart.

A well acoustically treated room helps recording consistency overall but raw recordings can be rather dry. Most guitar recordings people listen to have been tweaked post recording for a better sound.

Thanks rock-slo. It is a conundrum. If I record a guitar and put out a raw recording it is unlikely that I can get it to sound “just like the guitar”. If I manipulate the recording to sound more like the guitar in real life then the recordings integrity is questioned.
I’m going to try to get as close as I can with the raw recordings. I may want to take a consensus of the folks I have helping me and see if we can do some tweaks to get it closer. I would then list my recording equipment, exactly what those tweaks are, the recording set up and then report that with my recordings.
I suppose that in the end that is not asking people to believe any more than I am if I saying it is a raw recording.

What ever I do, I want to land on something that I can do consistently so I can compare a guitar I record today to one I record a year from now.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by Mark Hatcher

Thanks rock-slo. It is a conundrum. If I record a guitar and put out a raw recording it is unlikely that I can get it to sound “just like the guitar”.

I am curious why you say that. The SR40s should provide accurate reproduction, you've got a good interface so preamp/DAC are fine. Aside from the headphones, what is your reproduction source (speakers)? Listening in phones will be a completely different experience than listening to good monitors in the room. (Which raises the point: are you listening in the same room you are recording in?)

The only real step up mic-wise would be to go to an omnidirectional mic, like the TC25 or TC30. That will give you more of the "guitar as you hear it in the room" sound and eliminate any issues with proximity effect.

Of course, good room treatment will make the "in the room" part sound better. But I'm surprised you don't feel you can get a good "just like the guitar" sound with what you have already.

[Mark Hatcher]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

I am curious why you say that. The SR40s should provide accurate reproduction, you've got a good interface so preamp/DAC are fine. Aside from the headphones, what is your reproduction source (speakers)? Listening in phones will be a completely different experience than listening to good monitors in the room. (Which raises the point: are you listening in the same room you are recording in?)

The only real step up mic-wise would be to go to an omnidirectional mic, like the TC25 or TC30. That will give you more of the "guitar as you hear it in the room" sound and eliminate any issues with proximity effect.

Of course, good room treatment will make the "in the room" part sound better. But I'm surprised you don't feel you can get a good "just like the guitar" sound with what you have already.

Thanks for commenting Chipotle, I am just now getting this all together to start recording. My initial tests sound very good to me. However, when I get a couple more people who have real recording experience in the room I expect that will likely change!
I am trying to capture the guitar without much room influence. If you play the recording in your listening room I want it to sound like it is in your room.

I know we’re on a slippery slope when we start talking about what the recording is played on. Those Beyerdynamics DT1770 headphones are a little heavy on the bass and light in the midrange. My stereo with Mission speakers have their own sound down in the shop, my Mini Cooper makes everything sound like crap.
I‘m counting on folks already being aware of the strengths and weaknesses of their own systems without also trying to accommodate for a room in New Hampshire where I’m recording it.
So before I commit to a particular set up the best I think I can do is listen to my test recordings on a variety of headphones and systems. Of course, I won’t bother with ear buds, I-phones, laptops etc.

I hope that sounds reasonable. If it doesn’t don’t hold back, I am willing to be wrong!

[ChuckS]

This should be an interesting undertaking. I think there is a fundamental difference in trying to produce a very nice sounding guitar recording versus producing a recording that is as realistic as possible of the guitar.

It seems your approach to recording your guitars is going to be to close mic. That might give you just what you want and minimize the influence of your room.

For my hobby recording, I am trying to get as much realism as possible. I chose to use a pair of onmi mics (with a preamp and converter that seem to be 'transparent'). One reason I chose Omni was so I wouldn't have proximity effect changes based on different recording distances. I also wanted the recording to be a 'blend' of the sounds coming from the entire guitar (more like what you'd hear when listening in front of the guitar), so I try to mic at least 20" back from the guitar. A complication with the Omni mics, and being placed back from the guitar, is the room (unless it's a nice room, or a dead recording space).

Good luck with your audio recordings. You've certainly done a fantastic job on the photography and I'm sure you'll get to where you want for the audio.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by Mark Hatcher

I know we’re on a slippery slope when we start talking about what the recording is played on. Those Beyerdynamics DT1770 headphones are a little heavy on the bass and light in the midrange.... I think I can do is listen to my test recordings on a variety of headphones and systems. Of course, I won’t bother with ear buds, I-phones, laptops etc.

The latter part of your quote is true of any recording, be it "as it is" acoustic or completely electronically generated. You want to see how the recording performs on multiple playback systems.

But wrt the first part of the quote above, listening on headphones has more to do with psychoacoustics than just frequency response. The entire experience of hearing something on headphones is quite different. Mixing solely on headphone (without lots of experience and knowing your particular headphones well) can lead to quite poor mixes due to those differences. I'd think your best playback would be good studio monitors--something designed to play back exactly what you have recorded, as much as possible--that's the whole point of monitors vs other playback systems. Of course, the room you are listening in also affects the playback. Proper room treatment can help with that too.

But don't be fooled thinking that headphones are giving you the "as it is" playback experience just because you're eliminating the room you are listening in.

Plus, you have no control over what the end user will be listening back on. It's possible a potential customer will be watching a compressed YouTube video on crummy earbuds in a noisy environment.

Recording techniques are critical too. E.g., close micing helps get rid of room sound, but a close-miced guitar does not sound like a guitar that you are listening to in the room from a few feet away. Micing farther away with a cardiod may get a more realistic sound but adds more room with off-axis frequency response. Omnis hear more like your ears, but sounding "good" depends more on the room.

I've yammered on a bit, but here's my final take: get a decent setup (you are well on your way). Treat your room the best you can. Then figure out how you are going to record and stick with a standard methodology for mics, mic placement, other hardware and software settings. You can't guarantee that what the end customer hears is exactly what you thought you recorded, but at least they will be able to compare your recordings to one another.

[runamuck]

Based on the experiences I've had recording in the last 15 years or so, for what you're attempting to do it needn't cost you as much money as you have listed.

Matched set of Earthworks SR40 mics

I've never read or heard of anyone using these for ac. guitar. Maybe someone has here and can comment but check out Gefell mics:
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...b247fc0547eb4f

On-Stage MY700 x y stereo bar
A spaced pair of mics works really well and you won't need this bar for that. If you use a spaced pair for recording, you also don't need a matched pair of mics.

UA Apollo X4 interface

For recording ac. guitar you only really need 2 inputs


Master Handbook of Acoustics 6th edition (god help me)

Yeah, god help you! Instead, spend some time on Ethan Winer's site:
http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

Room treatment is a BIG deal and without it great mics, expensive preamps and converters have a diminished value. That goes for different models of guitars too: you've just got to treat your room otherwise your room can color the sound of your recordings to the extent that all your different models can smear into the same sound

My recommendation is to spend a lot more time studying room treatment than you do figuring out which mics to buy and either make or purchase the necessary number of bass traps depending on the size and characteristics of your room.

And check out Doug Young's contributions on this site. You can learn a lot from him.

[TBman]

deleted...........

[TomB'sox]

I know nothing except I applaud your very real attempt to make as representative recording as possible to display your product. I find that quite admirable. Best of luck, I think your room as I saw it was quite good so any improvements made by the experts should be great.

I will say, and I think I have told you this, when I hear demos it is also very important what is played. I do not need to see how good the guitar player is, but I want to know how good the guitar is. Maybe that is just playing some individual chords or notes slowly so I can hear sustain, overtones, note separation, lows and mids and highs. If someone is playing some Mississippi ragtime, I get none of that.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Mark Hatcher

Luthier Recording Samples.

It's easy to take nice pictures of guitars being made and finished but, I've had a rough road understanding which way to go for recording sound clips that show my work.

I tried to do "raw" recordings with lower end equipment so it doesn't look like it is more about the equipment than the guitar.
I haven't been able to capture the nuances of sound distinguishing one guitar from another that I can easily hear when the guitars are in my hands.

I've decided to invest in much better recording equipment with the goal of being able to capture the difference in sound between say a Mahogany backed guitar and a Walnut one of the same model.
Something I could A B a comparison that can be heard with reasonable listening equipment and be an accurate presentation of what my guitars actually sound like.

I have professional level camera equipment and I sell a lot of very pretty guitars partly because of that. Of course, that always begs the question "Do they sound as good as they look?"
I want recording equipment that can represent and sell my guitars like my camera does.

Matched set of Earthworks SR40 mics
On-Stage MY700 x y stereo bar
Tama Iron Works Stands
Mogami Gold Studio cables
UA Apollo X4 interface
Thunderbolt 3 connection
Dell 15 XPS laptop
Ableton Live DAW
Beyerdynamics DT990 headphones
Beyerdynamics DT1770 Pro headphones (on the way)
Master Handbook of Acoustics 6th edition (god help me)

I started this thread to show my journey, take questions on my decisions and hear suggestions from those kind enough to share.

Thanks,
Mark
Hatcher Guitars

It will be interesting to watch your progress and see what path you choose.

I have had several sets of headphones and my Beyerdynamic DT770s are my first choice for any critical listening.

Headphones and powered monitors can sound so different that I think I'd find it hard to try and duplicate what an actual instrument produces in any given room or environment. If you're doing this for prospective customers it's going to be pretty much impossible to duplicate in their room, even if they had the exact same monitors as you used. Headphones might be a better bet for consistency, but most customers aren't going to have your same phones, and they can vary a bit even between the same brand and model, discounting the effect of what they will be driven from.

You might consider the videos done by both Acoustic Guitar magazine and (ahem...) Tony Polecastro's Youtube channel. They both try for consistency, and that's something it sounds like you'll need to work toward.

Good luck on your project in any case!

[Mark Hatcher]

Thanks for your comments and for sharing your experience everyone. I have a lot to think about. I'll be sure to put more emphasis of room set up. I appreciate that the room set up is important whether I want to hear the room or not!
I do have studio monitors on my list but am saving up money and waiting for the virus to calm down a bit more before I go on tour to some of the showrooms where I can hear and compare them.

Thanks Again,
Mark