Zoom test tone test :-)

Doug Young · #1 06-23-2020, 10:02 PM

I've been doing some experiments with audio quality on Zoom. For anyone curious, here's what we're up against. I created a session between 2 computers in my house. Best case scenario as far as internet. Voice sounds great, guitar sounds "good", but to see what's really going on, I played a test tone into my end, and recorded the result on the 2nd computer. The test tone is nice and steady. Here's what Zoom does to it. Could be worse, but...

EDIT: for clarity, I'm talking about the Zoom chat program that I use for lessons and workshops, AGF's open mics, etc, not a Zoom H4,5,6 recorder. We don't have a good "internet music" subforum, but I think most of the discussion about this stuff has been here under recording for lack of a better place.

rick-slo · #2 06-23-2020, 10:18 PM

Sounds like buffer issue.

https://www.zoom-na.com/sites/defaul...ws-PC_en_6.pdf

Doug Young · #3 06-23-2020, 10:29 PM

This is the Zoom chat program, Zoom.us, not a Zoom recorder :-) I'm connecting over the internet in a Zoom video/audio session.

No buffering controls on this "Zoom". Confusion not surprising. I wonder if there's a trademark issue here.... :-) and how that's being handled.

rick-slo · #4 06-23-2020, 10:50 PM

Then internet buffering/bandwidth issue?

https://speedify.com/blog/how-to/fix...s-audio-video/

Doug Young · #5 06-23-2020, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Then internet buffering/bandwidth issue?

https://speedify.com/blog/how-to/fix...s-audio-video/

it probably is an internet buffering issue somewhere. But I have 1 Gigabit down, and 45Mbs up. That of course doesn't mean there isn't some bottleneck out in the wild of the internet, tho this is between two computers in the same house, so kind of best possible situation. Probably still traveling to Comcast and back, tho.

Those of us who have been participating in online streaming of various kinds have encountered the dropouts, gurgling, distortion, etc that appears to come with the territory. It was just interesting to hear the effect on a simple test tone, rather than just saying "the guitar sounds less than ideal"

The speedify thing looks interesting, tho probably not suitable for public streaming to arbitrary people. Looks like it's for a "team", like a company that can put it on the VPN everyone uses. And one thing it seems to be doing is addressing dropouts as people on mobile devices move around, connecting to different access points. But here, I'm on 2 static computers, connected to the internet in the same house.

renoslim · #6 06-24-2020, 07:47 AM

Been running a ZOOM meetup fo awhile. Have you seen
this link about ZOOM sound quality (setting "original sound") ?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=50NoWIiYECA

KarenB · #7 06-24-2020, 08:25 AM

Thanks for doing this Doug. There's someone out there working on how to get software like Zoom to be able to have groups of people playing and singing at the same time without delay. That would be most welcome and would make someone a fortune.

Doug Young · #8 06-24-2020, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by renoslim

Been running a ZOOM meetup fo awhile. Have you seen
this link about ZOOM sound quality (setting "original sound") ?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=50NoWIiYECA

yes, hopefully there's no one left who doesn't know about this at this point :-)

Yes, all setting were optimized. It'd be interesting to compare with the non-optimal settings, but I suspect for a simple sine wave test like this, it wouldn't show up as different. Those have to do with with compression, echo cancellation, and so on. I think what this is showing is internet dropouts - out of Zoom's control.

Doug Young · #9 06-24-2020, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarenB

Thanks for doing this Doug. There's someone out there working on how to get software like Zoom to be able to have groups of people playing and singing at the same time without delay. That would be most welcome and would make someone a fortune.

Yes, there are people doing this. JamKazam is the best known and does work, if your internet connections allow. JackTrip, developed at Stanford is another.

You might find this article I wrote for Acoustic Guitar helpful:

https://acousticguitar.com/virtual-j...-in-real-time/

KevWind · #10 06-24-2020, 12:06 PM

Thanks Doug , We use Zoom for the (virtual) Jackson Hole Hootenanny . And that explains some of the clicky dropouts.
The other issue is no doubt people with iffy internet connections, but with the Up and Down speed you said you have I would not think that is an issue.

At the Hoot we all use original sound (the only issue being on the Zoom GUI the confusing setting being When Original sound is turned on, the Zoom option shows up as "Turn Off Original Sound"

Oh and by the way contrary to what the gent in the video renoslim linked says, there is a way to turn on "Original sound" with a Mobile device also

Doug Young · #11 06-24-2020, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevWind

Thanks Doug , We use Zoom for the (virtual) Jackson Hole Hootenanny . And that explains some of the clicky dropouts.
The other issue is no doubt people with iffy internet connections, but with the Up and Down speed you said you have I would not think that is an issue.

Yeah, even when everyone has good internet, things are more flakey than you'd hope. When using JamKazam, you get real-time updates on latency and other stats, and it's fun to watch. One second you have 20ms latency and everything's great, the next it's 200ms and you're dropping out. The internet wasn't designed for audio, with data broken up into packets, and no requirement that they even arrive in the order in which they were sent. It's actually amazing that audio and video work at all...

If I have time, I'll play with this some more, it's just kind of nice to know what people are seeing on the other end when I'm controlling both sides.

lkingston · #12 07-18-2020, 07:33 AM

I just to say that I a following this conversation with great interest.

Not much to add yet except for the following:

1) Smartphones have better cameras, so it is tempting to use them instead of a computer.

2) My Android phone has a better camera, so I was using that, but I can still hear the horrible Zoom compression even when I turn on "Use original sound", so I am back on the iPad Pro even though the camera isn't nearly as good.

2) I have the new Sony ZV-1 camera. There is a firmware update promised that will let this camera function as a webcam. This will be an incredibly high quality webcam when that happens with a stereo audio input. I believe this might be the best solution once that happens.

Doug Young · #13 07-18-2020, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lkingston

2) I have the new Sony ZV-1 camera. There is a firmware update promised that will let this camera function as a webcam. This will be an incredibly high quality webcam when that happens with a stereo audio input. I believe this might be the best solution once that happens.

You don't have to run your audio thru the camera. All the video platforms I know of, Skype, Zoom, Facetime, etc, as well as OBS let you pick your video and audio sources separately.

My current setup is a little complex, but I use a Black Magic ATEM switcher/video interface that lets me use 2 Panasonic GH-series cameras as my "webcam", as well as bring in video from my desktop, ipad, etc. I can switch between them, do picture-in-picture, etc. But that's just video.

For audio, I simply configure Zoom, etc, to use my UAD Apollo computer interface, mostly with an Audio Technica AT4050 mic, but I can also mix in other audio sources if I want.

Audio and video are completely separate paths, so I try to go for the best quality I can going in. Of course, as this little test shows, I can't control what happens to the audio (or video) once it's out over the internet, or what Zoom might do to it, in spite of all the settings that purport to shut off Zoom's audio processing.

mtdmind · #14 07-18-2020, 11:34 AM

Some people I was playing with before the pandemic hit were looking for a platform that people can use to play together live. Just doesn't seem to be anything. Even if there were such software and a fast internet, could it not still encounter bottlenecks somewhere?

Doug Young · #15 07-18-2020, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mtdmind

Some people I was playing with before the pandemic hit were looking for a platform that people can use to play together live. Just doesn't seem to be anything. Even if there were such software and a fast internet, could it not still encounter bottlenecks somewhere?

Try JamKazam. It works well, as long as the internet cooperates. Best when people aren’t too far away.