Compensated nut

[rick-slo]

Why isn't it somewhat standard for a nut to be designed to handle compensation something like below? For most tunes there are usually more intonation problems with open versus fretted strings near the nut than up the neck? Cut the distance a bit from the end of the fretboard to the first fret and make up the distance with a wider nut and/or do the shelf overhang thing.

[swarfrat]

I'm a fan. Now that there are folks doing it in bone at reasonable prices, eventually all my guitars will have them.

Obviously, a lot of good music has been made without them. But then again, why should we let the success of Dylan's Everybody Must get Stoned convince us that tuners are a bad thing?

[PHJim]

I don't understand the reasoning behind the compensated nut.
Do people who use capos benefit from a compensated nut?
Is it only useful for open strings?
Why not a zero fret? or lower the action at the nut?

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by PHJim

I don't understand the reasoning behind the compensated nut.
Do people who use capos benefit from a compensated nut?
Is it only useful for open strings?
Why not a zero fret? or lower the action at the nut?

Primarily an issue on the first three to four frets with a shifting mix of open and fretted strings. The B string often frets noticeably sharp. I like
medium gauge on the plain strings and light gauge on the wound strings which makes the B string fret even sharper. Also the groove that the
nut fits into is quite often misplaced a fraction. It would be nice to have more room to make adjustments to the string/nut contact point.

[ChalkLitIScream]

noticing that all the strings need compensation in the same direction (ie. +x amount of compensation)

if so, why dont we purposely cut the slot for the nut about 0.6mm (or even a bit more to help the other strings) closer?

[John Arnold]

Do people who use capos benefit from a compensated nut?

Sure. Capo or not, the compensated nut alters the tuning of the open strings, which affects intonation when fretted. In other words, the compensated nut will reduce the need to retune when placing the capo on the neck.

Is it only useful for open strings?

The main advantage is fretting close to the nut.

Why not a zero fret?

A zero fret is no different from a properly made nut, where the bottoms of the string slots are level with the fret plane.

or lower the action at the nut?

See above. The correct nut height is the same as the frets. That does not negate the reason for this compensation. When fretting close to the nut, the string is bent at a sharper angle, which increases the tension.

why dont we purposely cut the slot for the nut about 0.6mm (or even a bit more to help the other strings) closer?

A lot of builders DO cut the fingerboard short. At the very least, the amount is often half the width of the fret slot, since few fingerboards are slotted to compensate for this. In that case, it is about 0.012" short.

[murrmac123]

Great answer John. Covers all the bases.

IME the two luthierie related topics which people experience the greatest difficulty in getting their heads round is compensated nuts, and so called "conical" fretboards.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Why isn't it somewhat standard for a nut to be designed to handle compensation something like below?

Typically most repairers / custom builders make the nut from bone, its a bit more difficult making a compensated nut from bone than it is with injection molding like that one you show has been made from.

I charge 70 to supply and fit a 6 string bone nut, I charge 95 to supply and fit a bone nut with a zero fret, I charge 135 to make a compensated nut.

The materials cost on all three options are almost identical, however the time taken to do them is vastly different.

Using a capo or not, the intonation with a compensated nut is better. Comparable to say a bone saddle being compensated and not compensated

Steve

[nottypine]

I've worked for Stelling banjo on and off since 1995. He has been doing a bone compensated nut on his banjos since the 70's if IIRC. He started his business in 1974. They do make quite a difference all over the neck. It's about the tuned open string length. I have considered doing this on a few of my guitars but have yet to do it. Scale length and even string gauges can affect the amount of compensation needed. We do it with a dremel and dental bits.
I've had a lot of folks tell me it can't work with a capo. That's nonsense. And I have a strobe tuner on my side. lol

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by mirwa

Typically most repairers / custom builders make the nut from bone, its a bit more difficult making a compensated nut from bone than it is with injection molding like that one you show has been made from.
Steve

The one shown says it's bone.

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

The one shown says it's bone.

It may just be the photo, but that looks like the two dots that sit on the bottom of plastic nuts used to locate them during the extrusion process

Steve

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by mirwa

It may just be the photo, but that looks like the two dots that sit on the bottom of plastic nuts used to locate them during the extrusion process

Steve

Here is a link:
https://www.chrisalsopguitar.co.uk/s...s-Alsop-Guitar

[Trevor Gore]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Why isn't it somewhat standard for a nut to be designed to handle compensation something like below?

Because the saddle compensation has to be altered to suit the added nut compensation. In approximate numbers, saddle and nut compensation work out to approximately the same distances. So, for example, if the 6th string required 5mm of saddle-only compensation, a reasonable result would be achieved by splitting that in two and putting 2.5mm on the nut and 2.5mm on the saddle. (The detailed maths is a lot more complicated than that!). Consequently, just fitting an aftermarket compensated nut, without re-compensating the saddle will likley produce a worse result than before. The problem of re-compensating the saddle is that it will likely involve re-cutting the saddle slot, and all of a sudden it gets too hard for most people.

Every guitar I've ever built has had nut compensation. Indeed, the first guitar I ever built was built to prove my theories about nut compensation. I make the fretboard shorter than normal so that I don't have to mess with an overhang as shown in the pic in your post. Each nut is custom made to suit the strings, action and scale length of the guitar it's on. The saddles are a bit different, too.

Here's some pics.

Nut compensation, as you might expect:




It's a bit difficult to see the saddle compensation in this pic, but note that there is no slant on the saddle.

[srick]

Trevor, I'm very curious as to how you cut your nuts - do you have a micro mill? If so, what is the brand? And of course, what material are you using for the nut? I would love to start playing around with this, but doing this by hand would be tedious to say the least.

Many thanks in advance.

Rick

[ChalkLitIScream]

Originally Posted by Trevor Gore

Because the saddle compensation has to be altered to suit the added nut compensation. In approximate numbers, saddle and nut compensation work out to approximately the same distances. So, for example, if the 6th string required 5mm of saddle-only compensation, a reasonable result would be achieved by splitting that in two and putting 2.5mm on the nut and 2.5mm on the saddle. (The detailed maths is a lot more complicated than that!).=

I've also read that one way to compensate the nut is to:
-first capo at fret 1 or 2
-intonate saddle with the capo (basically comparing the octave harmonic (13th or 14th fret here) to the fretted note.
-idea here is to get the notes playign in tune with eachother first.
-then remove the capo and compensate the nut by correcting the open string to the fretted 1st or 2nd fret.

IS this another method of doing it, or is it just simply wrong?

Intuitively this does make sense, and some basic testing comparing the open string with the fretted note after saddle compensation with capo indicated that the open strings were relatively flat (needing to shorten the nut by adding an extension).