Buying a 25 year old guitar

[foxo]

Tomorrow I’m going to be trying out a custom shop Martin 00028vs from 1996. I’m excited but a little apprehensive down to its age and the possibly it might need a neck reset. What should I look out for when trying this guitar? How can you tell if a neck reset is needed?

[Bob Womack]

Three things: loose braces, neck health, and the reset. To check for loose braces you can take your thumb and thump the top in the free areas. If you hear a reedy vibration it could be a loose brace. You'll want to look under the hook with an inspection mirror if you get the vibration.

Make sure the neck is reasonably straight with a slight relief in it. Place a capo at the first fret and fret at the fourteenth fret. A business card should just slide under the seventh fret without pushing up the string. If not, adjust the truss rod. Check that both sides have the same relief and remove the capo. If you can't get it to the right relief it will possibly need truss rod work. Check the frets for wear. If they are low of have divots that can't be dressed out it may be time for a re-fret.

The easiest way to check for neck angle is with a straight edge. Make sure the neck is straight as above and then lay the straight edge on the frets with one end extending to the bridge. A well-aligned neck will allow the straight edge to able to slide up and lay on top of the bridge, not the saddle, the wooden bridge. As the neck joint folds this will become impossible and you will find it pointing at a spot below the top surface of the bridge. If the action is high at the twelfth fret, the amount that the straight edge points down from the top plane of the bridge will have to come off the bottom of the saddle in order to get it back to where it was. A low saddle results in the strings having a wrong break across the bridge and results in lower volume a a muted tone.

Hope that helps!

Bob

[hubcapsc]

If you haven't checked your neck with a straight edge yet,
you might think this is trivial advice, but...

A one foot straight edge isn't good enough.

A three foot one is too long.

The guitar straight edge at stewmac costs $51.67.

I cut a foot off a $2 Lowes yard-long aluminum straight
edge.



-Mike

[TennesseeWalker]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

Three things: loose braces, neck health, and the reset. To check for loose braces you can take your thumb and thump the top in the free areas. If you hear a reedy vibration it could be a loose brace. You'll want to look under the hook with an inspection mirror if you get the vibration.

Make sure the neck is reasonably straight with a slight relief in it. Place a capo at the first fret and fret at the fourteenth fret. A business card should just slide under the seventh fret without pushing up the string. If not, adjust the truss rod. Check that both sides have the same relief and remove the capo. If you can't get it to the right relief it will possibly need truss rod work. Check the frets for wear. If they are low of have divots that can't be dressed out it may be time for a re-fret.

The easiest way to check for neck angle is with a straight edge. Make sure the neck is straight as above and then lay the straight edge on the frets with one end extending to the bridge. A well-aligned neck will allow the straight edge to able to slide up and lay on top of the bridge, not the saddle, the wooden bridge. As the neck joint folds this will become impossible and you will find it pointing at a spot below the top surface of the bridge. If the action is high at the twelfth fret, the amount that the straight edge points down from the top plane of the bridge will have to come off the bottom of the saddle in order to get it back to where it was. A low saddle results in the strings having a wrong break across the bridge and results in lower volume a a muted tone.

Hope that helps!

Bob

^^^ excellent advice ^^^

might i add, don't let a little bit of high action or neck alignment stop you from getting an otherwise excellent guitar or a deal on such -
it happens to the best of guitars over time. if it's there, make sure the cost to cure is factored in.

[foxo]

Thanks for advice all.

[Wellington]

Concerning the neck angle, I looked into this a while ago, i found more information saying that the straight edge should actually line up a bit below the top of the bridge, not sure if that depends on the guitar or what, but if the straight edge doesn't live up with the top of the bridge I wouldn't worry, unless you have a high action that can't be corrected with shaving the saddle too much and having the proper neck relief.

[ssstewart]

in reference to checking neck relief, angle etc, i have found the absolute best straight edge...a rafter square, its very heavy so it stays true over time, and since it has a 16" side and a 24" side it serves many uses for neck..nut to end of fretboard, neck to bridge, etc in alot of cases and much cheaper than a "specialty tool" and more rugged/reliable imo.

[Bob Womack]

By the way, a standard carpenters framing square will work just fine. They have a 24" side and a 16" side. Use the short side. They can be had for about $8 at big box hardware stores and are useful around the house as well. They are big and clunky, and set your teeth on edge around guitars, though.



Bob

[Glennwillow]

You have had good advice on this thread.

I would suggest, too, that the Martin 000-28VS can be a somewhat dark (that is, bass heavy) sounding guitar, and if the strings are old and you like a little treble sparkle, you may find yourself unimpressed with the guitar. (I own a 2006 Martin 000-28VS.)

You might consider taking a set of new strings with you, assuming the owner (or you) would be willing to change the strings. In the early years I used Martin SP 80/20 strings to bring out a little more treble. As the bass-heavy character of my 000-28VS mostly disappeared, I started using PB formulation strings, either D'Addario or Martin coated strings. Or uncoated D'Addario EJ16 (pb, light gauge) sound good.

To my ears, this is one of those guitars that shines with new strings.

- Glenn

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

You have had good advice on this thread.

I would suggest, too, that the Martin 000-28VS can be a somewhat dark (that is, bass heavy) sounding guitar, and if the strings are old and you like a little treble sparkle, you may find yourself unimpressed with the guitar. (I own a 2006 Martin 000-28VS.)

You might consider taking a set of new strings with you, assuming the owner (or you) would be willing to change the strings. In the early years I used Martin SP 80/20 strings to bring out a little more treble. As the bass-heavy character of my 000-28VS mostly disappeared, I started using PB formulation strings, either D'Addario or Martin coated strings. Or uncoated D'Addario EJ16 (pb, light gauge) sound good.

To my ears, this is one of those guitars that shines with new strings.

- Glenn

This^^^is good advice from Glenn

Above all...don't go into this visit with all the "worry wart what if's" kind of stuff weighing too heavily on your mind. Sure there are things to look for, but your not crossing an old minefield here...it's a guitar...and a VERY well made and well regarded guitar!

This guitar you are looking at has an adjustable truss rod, so a lot of the neck issues that can be troublesome with a vintage Martin, or one of the newer Authentic models that not have adjustable truss rods, are not nearly as big of an issue.

Don't go in worried and concerned, and not being able to see the forest for the trees...go into this hopeful and excited and expecting the best, not the worst. These are wonderful guitars, and there is a much better than average chance that this guitar you are auditioning will be fantastic!


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

... These are wonderful guitars, and there is a much better than average chance that this guitar you are auditioning will be fantastic!

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

I think there is a good chance that this will be a great guitar, too!

I really appreciate mine!

- Glenn

[Glennwillow]

In thinking about this thread, I wanted to add that when my Martin 000-28VS was new, I immediately took it to a good technician that I use to have it set up for my playing preferences. The factory action was considerably higher than what I like for fingerstyle playing.

I like the height of the low E string to be about 0.080" (2 mm) above the 12th fret, so the saddle had to be lowered some. As I remember one or two nut slots were also a tweak high. And after 25 years, it would not be surprising that some trussrod adjustment may be needed.

My 000-28VS has a 1 13/16" nut width with a mod-V neck. For me, this makes playing this guitar more of a challenge, so getting the action optimized for me made a huge difference.

I once played a custom shop Martin 000-28VS with a 1.75" nut width and a low oval neck and it was markedly easier for me to play. Since the guitar you are looking at is a custom shop Martin, who knows what you are going to find. But I hope it's a winner for you!

Best of luck!
- Glenn

[phavriluk]

What a good idea: Framing squares are nice and stiff, and the unneeded short side can be cut off. There's aluminum ones that aren't too heavy, too. Now there's two straightedges!

About where a straightedge encounters a bridge, it can vary. Unstrung, one place, tuned to pitch, the string tension will raise the bridge (amount is not the same among instruments) some.

[foxo]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

This^^^is good advice from Glenn

Above all...don't go into this visit with all the "worry wart what if's" kind of stuff weighing too heavily on your mind. Sure there are things to look for, but your not crossing an old minefield here...it's a guitar...and a VERY well made and well regarded guitar!

This guitar you are looking at has an adjustable truss rod, so a lot of the neck issues that can be troublesome with a vintage Martin, or one of the newer Authentic models that not have adjustable truss rods, are not nearly as big of an issue.

Don't go in worried and concerned, and not being able to see the forest for the trees...go into this hopeful and excited and expecting the best, not the worst. These are wonderful guitars, and there is a much better than average chance that this guitar you are auditioning will be fantastic!


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

Thanks duff, good advice. I have a good feeling the guitar will be what I am looking for.

[blindboyjimi]

No offense, but if the OP does not know what to look for s/he should simply ask for a 36 hr approval period and take it to a trusted tech/luthier or even better just have the owner drop it off at the OPs preferred luthier and have the luthier privately call the OP. Certainly, it’d be worth 20 minutes of labor.

I wouldn’t want someone I don’t know banging on my guitars looking for loose braces that don’t exist or putting a 2lb metal straight edge with super sharp corners on my fretboard and risking dinging the top or the bridge of a $2800 guitar (or more in the UK). The straight edge test needs knowledge. The frets must be level and at their original height, the guitar tuned to pitch, and relief taken out of the neck and the guitar neck will be under set if the straight edge is on top of the bridge as someone mentioned. It should meet the corner of the bridge. Finally, Martin uses 3 different thickness of bridges to determine the height of the saddle so the straight edge test depends on which of the 3 bridges is on the guitar.

Someone else mentioned action of 0.080” which is incredibly low, and someone else mentioned correct relief of a business card not touching anything. I googled card stock of 14-16pt is standard for a usual business card which equates to 0.39mm or 0.159” which would be out of spec for a Martin (0-0.010”). I prefer my set ups at the standard of about 3/32” and 2/32” with 0.005” relief or less. My guitars don’t buzz and are set up with as flat a neck as possible (barely light seen between the string and 6th fret (since we’re talking about a 12 fret guitar) with a capo at one and holding down the 12th fret, with the nut slots at fret height.

I mentioned the above not to say I’m correct - we all are, but that a guitar has a good range of playability from very low action (which must therefore have a low-ish saddle) to very high relief (Martin’s range is conservative as many forceful pickers regularly use high relief of up to 0.020”) and by internet opinions varying a very good bit and we all think our guitars play wonderfully.

A little information is dangerous. If the guitar has good action, plays well, and some saddle showing, you should be fine. Glueing a loose brace would cost $25, and every guitar made of wood will need a reset between 2 and 40 years. It’s routine maintenance, no different than strings or a 100,000 mile tune up. Guitars get better with age so I’d be more worried buying a new guitar, especially if this seller is a reasonable guy and a decent player, and especially if he’s a forum member.

I personally love the 1 13/16” modV neck. It’s my favorite Martin neck of all time. Best of luck.