Winner of YESTERDAY'S V-class playoffs...

[vindibona1]

Disclaimer: *I* like guitars will full warm sounds, balanced and "stacked" properly (to my taste/preference, of course... not too boomy, not too thin).

And so yesterday while at the local GC for other reasons I stopped into the acoustic room. They'd gotten a bunch new Taylors in, and had sold some. Time to test the new crop. All were GA CE's... from the "top down"... 814ceDLX, 714ce, 614ce, 614ceSE, 414ceSE. Also on hand from Taylor were two 214ce SEKoas.

I played them all, with several rounds, then back and forth. And to be honest, the best sounding of these was the 414ceSE, follwed closely by one of the 214 Koas. FWIW I'm the owner of a 814ceDLX-x and a 614ce (pre 2015.. and of course an X).

The 414ceSE-v hit all the check boxes in terms of what I consider to be a fully acceptable sound. Of course all the Taylors played well/similarly.

... But to my surprise the day's winner wan't a Taylor at all... But a Martin Performing Artist Series GPCRSGT(Made in Mexico btw)! It sounded so similar to the 414ceSE-v that I had to go back and forth several times. Ok... the 414 may have sounded *slightly* (and I mean ***slightly***) fuller, but $1000 vs $2500? Yeah, the 414's sunburst was gorgeous and of course the fit and finish of the Taylor was as you'd expect. The only thing I'd want to do to the Martin is roll the fingerboard edges. If I needed a guitar and only had $1k in my pocket this Martin would be hard to ignore. Not the prettiest guitar in the store, but definitely challenging the sound of guitars 1.5x to 2.25x it's price. While the 214ceK's were absolutely gorgeous (for $1500) I thought the MIM Martin beat them on sound- again still slightly preferring the 414ceSE.

What surprised me was that the much more expensive 814ceDLX, 714ce, 614SE and 614ce- all V's disappointed me sonically in comparison. Obviously everyone will have their sonic preferences. Some will love the V-class for their style of playing, their touch... And while I try to remain open minded, I have to question the intention, if not wisdom of doing a wholesale conversion of the Taylor line to V-class. I guess the next round of "upgrades" may be the "classic-class", much like what Coca Cola did with the Coke Classic. But hey... Financially Taylor seems to be doing great without my advice.

[Tnfiddler]

If I were to buy a new Taylor today, it’d be a 916ce with X-bracing.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Disclaimer: *I* like guitars will full warm sounds, balanced and "stacked" properly (to my taste/preference, of course... not too boomy, not too thin).



... And while I try to remain open minded, I have to question the intention, if not wisdom of doing a wholesale conversion of the Taylor line to V-class. I guess the next round of "upgrades" may be the "classic-class", much like what Coca Cola did with the Coke Classic. But hey... Financially Taylor seems to be doing great without my advice.

I and several other members on this forum, are of the opinion that the whole paradigm shift to V Class bracing is really a mass production cost savings move more than any other consideration. If you look at Taylors production arch since the mid/late 80's...you can see them slowly, but continuously increasingly moving away from their solo luthier/boutique maker roots to full on mass factory production. They have, over the years had several iterations of "re-voicing" various guitars in their model lines, but it was more scattershot in nature and designed to make specific improvements in certain models...not full complete line-up voicing overhauls.

Even when Andy Powers came into view and power, and he had his first VERY highly regarded and SUPER successful re-voicing of the 900/800 and GS series guitars...the new CV AP bracing systems...and then his re-design of the jumbo models, it was still just "here and there" adjustments...albeit VERY popular adjustments!!!

But all the while, as Andy Powers started with Taylor, and Taylor was refining their production techniques...according to the press releases...Andy was working on the V-Class bracing...what did they say...5 years in design and testing before bringing it out...was that right? So this WAS a big move for Taylor, and if you look at the direction the company has been traveling, everything has really been gearing up for more streamlined...and thus lower cost...mass production operations, and the V-Class bracing was...IMO...the major component in this production streamlining process...as it is supposed to go throughout the entire model lines as far as I remember...correct me if I am wrong.

And I...and again hardly just me...but in fact , a number of other AGF'ers think this is all primarily a production cost efficiency move. Yes...it did change the tone/timbre/and dynamic response fairly drastically, but in this case, I am not sure that this is as much "a feature not a bug" as it is "bug that we will market as a feature". And given the VERY lukewarm, at best, to rather cool reception from actual customers...NOT from promoters and influencers...to the tonal change with the V-Class bracing, that I feel I have observed here on the AGF and elsewhere on other forum sites...I suspect that back up in the halls of power at Taylor, they are at least a little taken aback by the relative lack of enthusiasm for their big change, even with all the heavy handed marketing push...but...nonetheless...it is still really "all in, all about the Benjamin$" for them, and they will press on with the plan, as the $avings in production costs, more than make up for any worries about potential long term public disfavor and potential loss of market share.

But it will be informing and intriguing perhaps...to see if Taylor starts making subtle "adjustments" to the V-Class bracing patterns...or...as you suggest vindibona1...if they will start bringing out "New 'Old' Taylor" with the "Old 'New' Bracing"


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[varmonter]

Working for a good portion of my adult life in manfacturing there
comes a time in the evolution of a company where
they have to think about demand. either expand or
make changes. The paradigm shifts from legacy to profits. Where you have to maximize
profits.It becoming the priority. So yea v class could certainly be a cost
efficiency compromise. My thoughts on them is that there is
not a significant enough change in sound to warrant my money.
They sound good. Different not Great. I suppose i may
own one someday as x braced taylors become extinct.
My thoughts on taylors has always been the higher up
you go in their numbers food chain the more bling your buying.
So the 414 you played is testamony to taylors
build quality. You get the same wood in a 914
but you also get an armrest , abalone inlay , Nice bursts , fretboard
inlays, nicer purfling ,better tuners ,smoother cutaways. bla bla bling.
This all takes labor time and parts. theyre beautiful. But do they sound better
than the 414...??

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by varmonter

Working for a good portion of my adult life in manfacturing there
comes a time in the evolution of a company where
they have to think about demand. either expand or
make changes. So yea v class could certainly be a cost
efficiency compromise. My thoughts on them is that there is
not a significant enough change in sound to warrant my money.
They sound good. Different not Great. I suppose i may
own one someday as x braced taylors become extinct.
My thoughts on taylors has always been the higher up
you go in their numbers food chain the more bling your buying.
So the 414 you played is testamony to taylors
build quality. You get the same wood in a 914
but you also get an armrest , abalone inlay , Nice bursts , fretboard
inlays, nicer purfling ,better tuners ,smoother cutaways. bla bla bling.
This all takes labor time and parts. theyre beautiful. But do they sound better
than the 414...??

Every 900 series Taylor I’ve played has been phenomenal. I think that they’re the best sounding Taylor guitars made. I played an 816ce dlx and a 916ce back to back and the 916ce sounded so much better, tone-wise. I know it’s every individuals perception, but I’d say you’d be hard pressed to find an x-brace 414 that would beat a 914.

[Goodallboy]

Originally Posted by mcduffnw

I and several other members on this forum, are of the opinion that the whole paradigm shift to V Class bracing is really a mass production cost savings move more than any other consideration. If you look at Taylors production arch since the mid/late 80's...you can see them slowly, but continuously increasingly moving away from their solo luthier/boutique maker roots to full on mass factory production. They have, over the years had several iterations of "re-voicing" various guitars in their model lines, but it was more scattershot in nature and designed to make specific improvements in certain models...not full complete line-up voicing overhauls.

Even when Andy Powers came into view and power, and he had his first VERY highly regarded and SUPER successful re-voicing of the 900/800 and GS series guitars...the new CV AP bracing systems...and then his re-design of the jumbo models, it was still just "here and there" adjustments...albeit VERY popular adjustments!!!

But all the while, as Andy Powers started with Taylor, and Taylor was refining their production techniques...according to the press releases...Andy was working on the V-Class bracing...what did they say...5 years in design and testing before bringing it out...was that right? So this WAS a big move for Taylor, and if you look at the direction the company has been traveling, everything has really been gearing up for more streamlined...and thus lower cost...mass production operations, and the V-Class bracing was...IMO...the major component in this production streamlining process...as it is supposed to go throughout the entire model lines as far as I remember...correct me if I am wrong.

And I...and again hardly just me...but in fact , a number of other AGF'ers think this is all primarily a production cost efficiency move. Yes...it did change the tone/timbre/and dynamic response fairly drastically, but in this case, I am not sure that this is as much "a feature not a bug" as it is "bug that we will market as a feature". And given the VERY lukewarm, at best, to rather cool reception from actual customers...NOT from promoters and influencers...to the tonal change with the V-Class bracing, that I feel I have observed here on the AGF and elsewhere on other forum sites...I suspect that back up in the halls of power at Taylor, they are at least a little taken aback by the relative lack of enthusiasm for their big change, even with all the heavy handed marketing push...but...nonetheless...it is still really "all in, all about the Benjamin$" for them, and they will press on with the plan, as the $avings in production costs, more than make up for any worries about potential long term public disfavor and potential loss of market share.

But it will be informing and intriguing perhaps...to see if Taylor starts making subtle "adjustments" to the V-Class bracing patterns...or...as you suggest vindibona1...if they will start bringing out "New 'Old' Taylor" with the "Old 'New' Bracing"


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

Thanks for this well thought out post. I yield to long-time Taylor customers in trying to understand the corporate mindset. Something I can add is this.

About 5 years ago I played three of the best Taylor guitars I've ever played. They literally astounded me, never a Taylor fan, by their big, deep, thunderous tone. Never before had I heard anything approaching this tone come from a Taylor. They each were the equal of any Martin I've owned or had my hands on. They were the "re-voiced" models mentioned in your post I believe. I seem to recall a poster/advert stating this alongside them in the shop. I recall an 800 series, 700 and 600 series, and could be wrong about that and I have no idea beyond the series, what specific models they were.

I was convinced then that Taylor had Martin owners in their sights and were about to launch a line of guitars that would appeal to them very strongly if given a chance.

That competition could have happened I'm certain, and how they drove off in the ditch with the V-Class experiment, ended that for now.

I'd be interested in the response from re-voiced owners or others with an opinion about my experience.

[zoopeda]

Help me understand. Why would switching from X bracing to V bracing improve production efficiency and, therefore, profit?

[mercy]

I have the same feelings about Martin. Every change they have made in their long history has been about saving them money, not improving the guitar or cost for the customer. I will never own a new Taylor or Martin as a sort of passive aggressive response to the rich getting richer. I may pay someone else for one but not them. What Taylor is doing is so obvious to see but if you cant see it listen to the marketing BS, "methinks she doth protest too much". Thank you all for confirming my reaction to the announcement to the V brace.

[gerardo1000]

Taylor is famous for making changes once in a while, and always claim that these changes will change the guitar world forever. I find it a bit annoying, maybe they exaggerated the improvement that the "V Class" bracing does to their guitars and raised expectations that did not find a confirmation when customers tested the new models.

[zoopeda]

Originally Posted by mercy

I have the same feelings about Martin. Every change they have made in their long history has been about saving them money, not improving the guitar or cost for the customer. I will never own a new Taylor or Martin as a sort of passive aggressive response to the rich getting richer. I may pay someone else for one but not them. What Taylor is doing is so obvious to see but if you cant see it listen to the marketing BS, "methinks she doth protest too much". Thank you all for confirming my reaction to the announcement to the V brace.

Re-think your thoughts on Martin. The whole "reimagined" revamp they did on the entire standard line last year involved forward shifting all of their standard bracing to the pre-war position. During WW2, Martin shifted their bracing BACKWARD to decrease # warranty claims. Martin just shifted it forward again for tonal reasons, despite possibility of increased warranty claims. Same can be said of the fact that most of their guitars are getting scalloped bracing now, instead of the post war straight "tank" bracing. And then there's the Authentic line... Think about that.

[mercy]

I wish that this forum would allow one word for that word would be PROFIT. Nothing wrong with profit but to claim that this new bracing has the best of any guitar is clearly an effort to get Taylor owners to buy a new guitar when would not have otherwise thinking they were set. I mean if you have a 414 why would you go out and buy the extravagant costing new guitars? Same for Martin, if you have an OM-21 why would you want to buy another guitar? " Hey you dont have one of these".

[FOG01]

Originally Posted by zoopeda

Help me understand. Why would switching from X bracing to V bracing improve production efficiency and, therefore, profit?

I too struggle to see how going from an X to a V makes any real difference in terms of material, productivity or cost. They seemed to be fairly successful as it was...

As an average hobbyist, I'm not a fan of V bracing so far but I believe the power(s) at Taylor (no pun intended) truly are.

What I'm curious about is why it seems new 414ce sounds most like the old X braced Taylor sound? I've heard others say as much and that was my impression as well when I played one.

[Shuksan]

Originally Posted by FOG01

I too struggle to see how going from an X to a V makes any real difference in terms of material, productivity or cost.

Compare the two Taylor bracing patterns below:

The x-braced top has a total of 12 braces of 7 types. It also requires making the lap joint where the x-braces cross.

The v-braced top has a total of only 7 braces (including the upper transverse brace missing in the photo) of only 4 types.

Those are significant differences, especially in a mass production setting.

[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

[FOG01]

Originally Posted by Shuksan

Compare the two Taylor bracing patterns below:



The x-braced top has a total of 12 braces of 7 types. It also requires making the lap joint where the x-braces cross.



The v-braced top has a total of only 7 braces (including the upper transverse brace missing in the photo) of only 4 types.



Those are significant differences, especially in a mass production setting.



[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

I do see the difference,

I'm admittedly not an authority on the subject, but do you really think there's enough difference in material or labor to risk the success of their company? I'm sure the bracing is the least costly of all the wood components and requires the least amount of precision, etc., to produce, particularly on the scale we're talking about.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by zoopeda

Help me understand. Why would switching from X bracing to V bracing improve production efficiency and, therefore, profit?

Shuksan posted the same thing I was going to post. MUCH simpler. That type of manufacturing logic appeared with the ES2 system. Instead of a complicated under-neck pickup plus a body sensor pickup that may have taken 30 minutes or more to install, not to mention the complication of having one of the pickups under their bolt-on neck (another production efficiency innovation), they ditched that concept for a bolt-on piezo that may take all of 7-10 minutes to install, complete with preamp.

Originally Posted by mercy

I have the same feelings about Martin. Every change they have made in their long history has been about saving them money, not improving the guitar or cost for the customer. I will never own a new Taylor or Martin as a sort of passive aggressive response to the rich getting richer. I may pay someone else for one but not them. What Taylor is doing is so obvious to see but if you cant see it listen to the marketing BS, "methinks she doth protest too much". Thank you all for confirming my reaction to the announcement to the V brace.

I don't feel that way about Martin (though I prefer many of ther "pre-reimagined" instruments ) IMO Martin has simply been chasing Taylor. Wider nut. Forward shifted bracing. Brighter sound with more harmonics.

To restate what I and others seem to have concluded, Taylor has shifted from a boutique, quality driven company to a mass produced, margin driven company, trying to maintain the aura of that boutique guitar. In this iteration I think they've gone a step too far. Let's see what comes next.

Just callin' em like I see em and glad to have my "preimagined" Taylors.