All those types, how to choose?

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by mycroft

a Stefen Sobell Martin Simpson model, which has about a 40 cm lower bout, and is roughly what is known as a Small Jumbo

I take it that's not the same thing as Jumbo Junior (because those have a 603mm scale length which seems really short)

[Tony Burns]

It is a bit confussing - but it is fun to look and learn.
Whats good for you may not be everyones elses favorite .
dont let the thoughts of others cloud how you feel about any instrument -

I would say from many years of playing - The dread is basically the do everything guitar -at least thats what i grab when i use one guitar -
but thats me -

Never forget the music is about the player and how they form it .
I heard a great performer who played very well- playing a low priced
generic guitar that was killing his music in Harrisburg last year -
he even used an amp that looked like he made it out of a broken record player
( not kidding ) He had talent -the guitar , probably had a decent set up
and decent strings -and he probably plays it alot ( a street performer )

[justonwo]

There are quite a few questions in there, but I can attempt to answer the simpler question about body types. The Martin sizes 0, 00, 000, 0000, etc get progressively bigger. The 0 is a very small body guitar, almost a parlor. These guitars are interesting in their very direct response but are mostly niche. 00 refers to a larger size that is still small but starts, in my opinion, to have enough bass response to sound like a full, balanced instrument. These guitars have lower bouts with a little over 14”.

000 and OM are the same size, with 15” lower bouts. Of course, the 000 also comes in a 12 fret version. The width of the body is the same, but the length is longer. This is a true mid-size instrument and has the balance/power for full spectrum response. These instruments are quite versatile. There’s a reason for their resurgence in the last 20-30 years.

There are larger “grand auditorium” and other designations that start to get up to dreadnought size in the lower bout but with tighter waists and shallower depths. The 0000 is relatively uncommon, but I think of it as a bigger version of the OM. You gain some bass and lose some mids/trebles. These are big/full-size guitars.

A dreadnought is another type of large body style, with more depth. Most fingerstyle players regard these instruments as more well suited to flatpicking and strumming, but that doesn’t always have to be the case. For example, 12 fret dreads (as I think Silly Moustache will attest) can sound amazing for fingerstyle.

Gibson, Taylor, and various others all have their size designations. Guitars that get bigger and deeper tend to start emphasizing the bass and suffer loss in the mids and trebles. Then you have your jumbos, super jumbos, etc.

To my way of thinking a good OM is a very safe bet for an all-arounder. It is really the sweet spot, and if I had to pick one guitar a 000-12 or OM would be it. The term “OM,” by the way, has been coopted by many guitar makers to describe mid-size guitars of all kinds of shapes and sizes, but generally ranging from 15-15.75” in the lower bout.

[Earl49]

Not every guitar can do everything well. A pickup truck does things that a sports car cannot, and vice versa. If you look at my tool boxes, you will find a number of Phillips head screwdrivers, with different point sizes and various lengths from 1.5" to 18". Each has a purpose.

Your tastes and desires are actually a moving target, depending on what style you wish to play. Want to play slide? A resonator my best fit the bill. For bluegrass a dreadnought is the base model, and will do things that a nylon strung classical guitar won't. As has been pointed out already: anything can be played on anything, but it may not be optimal for that style.

[mawmow]

I have many acoustics using many string brands because I like many different sound colors that no lonely guitar can deliver.

What is the most type of songs in your repertoire ?
Country would probably point to Martin, instrumentals toward Taylor, etc.

Your comfort is mandatory : 5'5" and 240 pounds, would go for smaller orchestra models (OO/OOO/OM) with 24,5" scale while 6'6" and 180 pounds would easily play big body with scale 25,5".

The neck is as important : Thin flat C Taylor neck, big baseball bat C neck or vintage V neck ?

Finally a decent set up is mandatory : There should no be room for a nickel between strings and first fret and I personnally lorwer that to a dime ! Around two nickels at 12th fret, low E a little higher that high E all the way on the neck qith a small bow of the neck. A well held strore could help fulfill your requirements.

[perttime]

Originally Posted by justonwo

... I can attempt to answer the simpler question about body types. ...

That was a pretty thorough run through of the most common types.

There's no real standardization. Many guitar brands like to be creative, so you might find a guitar that is the size of an Orchestra Model, but the shapes are different, top bracing is different, woods are different, etc. Violins and classical guitars are pretty standardized in size and shape - and they still don't all sound the same.

As a general rule, a larger guitar will have more "body" and more available bass in the sound. What exactly you hear will still be affected by how it was built. Volume, sustain, harmonics, tone.

I guess an OM size guitar (whatever brand and designation) would be a safe starting point, unless you are looking for a size or sound that requires a big or small guitar.

[RJVB]

Many thanks - again

So basically one could think of an Auditorium or Concert model as "large enough to fill a concert venue with the spectral range you'd need", assuming it's just you and the guitar?

My resonator has the neck joining the body at the 12th fret, I guess that's what's meant with a 12 fret model. The thought has already occurred to me to ask what putting on a longer neck would cost so if I get a different guitar I'd definitely want a 14 fret model. Or a cut-out. Or both.

Edit: something like a Guild OM-240CE to start with? BTW, to what extent is its the archback design little more than a sales gimmick? As a violinist (with some blue-monday gamba experience) I am attracted to arched designs but I wouldn't want that to be exploited

[perttime]

Originally Posted by RJVB

...
My resonator has the neck joining the body at the 12th fret, I guess that's what's meant with a 12 fret model. The thought has already occurred to me to ask what putting on a longer neck would cost so if I get a different guitar I'd definitely want a 14 fret model. Or a cut-out. Or both.
...

Neck joint at 14th fret is the usual thing on steel string guitars.

When companies produce a 12 fret version, they usually keep the same scale length: the bridge is moved back the 2 fret distance, too. That places the bridge in a different spot in the lower bout, usually more central, which works the top in a different way. So the sound is different. Mainly you get a stronger bass response.
(I'm sure the structure under the top has some changes too, when you move the bridge.)

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by perttime

That places the bridge in a different spot in the lower bout, usually more central, which works the top in a different way. So the sound is different. Mainly you get a stronger bass response.

Presumably at a comparable expense in the treble response?
I'm pretty certain I've seen 13-fret guitars and I now understand a bit better how those could be justified.

[justonwo]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Presumably at a comparable expense in the treble response?
I'm pretty certain I've seen 13-fret guitars and I now understand a bit better how those could be justified.

No, there is no loss in treble response at all. In the Martin world, the 12 fret design on the 000-12, for example, is achieved by elongating the body so that it connects at the 12th fret instead of the 14th. (Actually, the OM was created by taking Martin’s 000-12 design and moving body back to the 14th fret. The primary goal was not tonal; it was more upper fret access).

Some 12 fret designs involve movement of the bridge toward the tail block, but this isn’t really the case in the Martin world.

A 12 fret Martin will generally have more bass than an OM at the loss of . . . Nothing, in my opinion, but upper fret access. And that goes away if you get a cutaway.

[perttime]

I THINK (dangerous, I know) that getting enough trebles isn't too difficult. Getting strong bass is more challenging, especially if the guitar is not large.

[The Kid!]

Originally Posted by musicman1951

In the end they're all guitars and you can play just about any style on just about any guitar - in your house. If you want to actually compete with a banjo in an ensemble setting you better not show up with your parlor guitar.

I've never run into this scenario. I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, I've just never encountered it. Mainly because I play plugged in if I'm gigging. I see the need for louder guitars for some, but thankfully, I don't ever have to compete with a banjo.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Neck/nut width: as a violin player I'm not put off by narrow necks, but I do know I wouldn't want it to be narrower than what I have on my resonator. Maybe more importantly, I'd prefer to have the E strings a bit less close to the fingerboard edge (even if that means reducing string separation a bit at the nut and saddle).

But it is not just the width of the nut. Generally when the nut is wider, so is the string spacing of the saddle. Which makes it easier to slip the right hand picking fingers in between the strings when fingerpicking. Too wide might make strumming a little more difficult, though. I find 1 3/4" a good general purpose size, although I do have a couple of 1 13/16ths.

Originally Posted by RJVB

Now, to get back to my original question: is there some way to understand model names as OM or some number of 0s? Those do look a lot like "generic" guitars to me, but I don't think I'd know how an Auditorium or Orchestra or Folk or even a Jumbo looks or sounds different. Knowing something about what sets them apart seems important to me in order to make an educated choice at some point, no matter how much I agree that ultimately it's possible to play just about anything on a good instrument (but I still won't play Bach on guitar except possibly under the proverbial shower ... or maybe P.D.Q. ).

And to give a simple answer to your orginal question, the answer is: no.

When I refer to an "OM" or "))" I am pretty much referring to the Martin nomenclature and descriptions. 0, 00, 000, OM, Dreadnaughts all originated as Martin designs. (Although Ditson was involved with the Dread) But when I think of Jumbo or Small Jumbo I think of the Gibson J-200 or J-185 as a baseline, although Martin does do a 0000 that is the same big tight-waisted guitar. OMMV

There is no accepted name for a particular body that means the same thing to all builders, though. A Goodall Parlour, for example, is pretty much the same size as a Martin 00. Even more confusingly, there are builders out there who make a "short-scale OM. Martin never made a short-scale OM, as the OM was actually an evolution of the 000-12 fret with a 24.9" scale to a 14 fret using pretty much the same body and with a 25.5" scale. Martin quickly also started making a 14-fret 000 with the 24.9" scale (and a few "long-scale 000s" in the early 30s) So a short-scale OM is actually a 000. Confused yet? Remember, we havin't even got started with what Gibson or Taylor calls their guitars.

So I guess the takeaway is that there is no substitute for research. Martin's website seems to go a pretty good job of laying out their specs, as somewhere to start. A guitar with a similar size body, in width and depth, with a similar scale and in similar woods, are going to have similar sounds. But not identical. Again, OMMV

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by RJVB

About 1.5h to anywhere of interest inside Paris by rail, or to the outskirts by car. Both alternatives are a PITA and not cheap, so that's something I might do if I wanted to try a particular or pricey guitar. Paris is not a town where I'd expect to find lots of places where you can waltz in and start trying instruments without either continuous interference or else complete disinterest from the staff. (I've lived there for more than 15 years and was VERY glad to leave.)

Why should that stop you? Of the two, I prefer complete disinterest. I am quite capable of taking instruments down off the wall that I am interested in, and asking (demanding) answers if I have questions. Not to mention showing complete disinterest to overly solicitous employees. I have experience with Paris...

Nothing beats actual experience. All the spec sheets, all the youtube clips and reviews totally pale compared with what actually playing will tell you.

[Mycroft]

Originally Posted by RJVB

I take it that's not the same thing as Jumbo Junior (because those have a 603mm scale length which seems really short)

No. Roughly based on the Gibson J-185. 16" lower bout, tight waist. I have one built by Canadian luthier David Webber.