Winner of YESTERDAY'S V-class playoffs...

[boneuphtoner]

Back to the point that the OP brought up - I'm not at all surprised by your findings - I've played all of Taylor's Grand Auditoriums except the 514 and 914 - and for what I want to do - light fingerstyle - the 324ce is clearly suits me best and is unlike any other guitar I've ever played. The build quality is also flawless.

Oh, and its a V-class too - I've only done one back-to-back comparison and I thought the V-class did improve sustain, but counter to Taylor's claims, to my ear, volume went down, not up. For me, however, the tradeoff was worth it as I heard an increased dimension of richness that I didn't hear before.

[beninma]

Having visited Taylor in February I find it hard to believe it's about cost savings and such.

All the wood cutting/shaping at Taylor is automated. Everything is laser cut for flat pieces & CNC cut for 3D shapes. It's really hard to believe a couple fewer pieces of bracing really saves them enough money that they would go spend 5 years trying to figure out a new way to brace guitars to save money.

Seems very very conspiracy theory oriented to me.

I've played enough V-class guitars that I think the whole V-class vs X-Brace is way blown out of proportion here. The differences between two X-brace guitars or two V-brace guitars is still bigger than the difference between the the same model of Taylor in X and V braced designs.

If Taylor makes a big push to simplify eliminate inlays and claims it leads to better tone then you will have a way better case for arguing they are being facetious to save money and increase profits. They laser cut their inlays pieces but they have to glue them in by hand, that hand inlay process is a big big part of the price differences in their different lines. Go up the line and there are more intricate inlays which mean more hours of traditional skilled labor going into the guitars. The other piece they haven't automated is bindings, so as you go up the line there are more intricate bindings which is also a big factor in the cost of the different guitars.

Not a coincidence at all that just about everything that comes out of their Mexican factory has minimalist inlay work & binding work.

They make no secret of this at all on the factory tour! Inlays are so much work they rotate everyone through the inlay room so no one goes nuts doing inlays all the time!

Meanwhile... how did anyone ever sell us all on inlays and binding making a guitar sound better in the first place? It's all just cosmetics!

[guitar george]

The only reason to change from X-bracing to V-bracing would be to improve the sound.

[mcduffnw]

Originally Posted by guitar george

The only reason to change from X-bracing to V-bracing would be to improve the sound.

But it clearly did not.

It changed the sound, but the overall guitar player/customer response to the V Class bracing is 50/50 at best...at best!

Taylor fans were way WAY more enthusiastic with Andy Powers re-bracing/re-voicing of the 900/800/700/GS models in 2014/2015.

Why not ride that wave of definite enthusiasm into the future? They had a winner in that re-voicing...why not just use that down through the model lines like they are doing with V-Class?

Something does not add up there...unless...you start looking at "other" factors like production cost/benefit.

Much like everything Martin did...with structural changes to their guitars...from the late 30's up until the Golden Era and Authentic Models in the early 2000's onward to present...was geared to beefing up their body structures to avoid expensive warranty issues with neck sets, neck de-warps, and top and bridge failures. $$$

If you look at Taylor over the long haul...every major thing/change that they have made has been geared to streamlining the production process and also eliminate warranty issues with neck sets and body failure issues. Even their re-voicing attempts were just here and there adjustments...even the super successful Andy Powers ones in 2014-2015.

Until V-Class bracing...which is a huge and very systemic change throughout the model lineups.

I would buy the argument that the V-Class bracing change was primarily about tone IF it was offered as a side by side option with their APCV X bracing. Make guitars in each model with either bracing system...choose your tone. It's a win, win for the retailer and the customer.

But to go all in with only V Class...that ain't just about tone...there is something more important lurking behind that decision.

$$$ per unit of manufacture.


duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher

[Tnfiddler]

I REALLY want a Florentine cutaway Taylor with an arm bevel and without the cost of the 900 series. I'm hoping I can order a 526ce before they switch over the GS series to V-bracing. Every V-braced model I've played doesn't do it for me and I strongly prefer the X-braced models over them!!

[jazzguy]

Originally Posted by Goodallboy

Thanks for this well thought out post. I yield to long-time Taylor customers in trying to understand the corporate mindset. Something I can add is this.

About 5 years ago I played three of the best Taylor guitars I've ever played. They literally astounded me, never a Taylor fan, by their big, deep, thunderous tone. Never before had I heard anything approaching this tone come from a Taylor. They each were the equal of any Martin I've owned or had my hands on. They were the "re-voiced" models mentioned in your post I believe. I seem to recall a poster/advert stating this alongside them in the shop. I recall an 800 series, 700 and 600 series, and could be wrong about that and I have no idea beyond the series, what specific models they were.

I was convinced then that Taylor had Martin owners in their sights and were about to launch a line of guitars that would appeal to them very strongly if given a chance.

That competition could have happened I'm certain, and how they drove off in the ditch with the V-Class experiment, ended that for now.

I'd be interested in the response from re-voiced owners or others with an opinion about my experience.

I too thought Andy's revoiced line was quite good and a noticeable improvement. I have only played one V class 7 and was underwhelmed. Loved he playability and rolled edges, finish, etc. But the tone was just OK. Very good but I could easily have done without it.

[jazzguy]

Originally Posted by mercy

I wish that this forum would allow one word for that word would be PROFIT. Nothing wrong with profit but to claim that this new bracing has the best of any guitar is clearly an effort to get Taylor owners to buy a new guitar when would not have otherwise thinking they were set. I mean if you have a 414 why would you go out and buy the extravagant costing new guitars? Same for Martin, if you have an OM-21 why would you want to buy another guitar? " Hey you dont have one of these".

As a BIG Taylor and Martin fan, I have zero issues with each being profitable and with them marketing themselves. I do take exception with massive over-exaggeration: my bracing changes guitars forever and they sound sooooo much better. Had Taylor simply launched the new bracing as a new sound with a "soft launch" - we would not be talking - again - about it here. At first I poo-poo'd the idea that this was all about mfg efficiency thinking "why would they cannibalize their own tone and "brand tone" but converting ALL guitars to V-Brace? I still don't understand it. Why not just offer a different tone option? My impression now is the production won over tone. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Andy, Bob and their willingness to experiment and innovate. But sometimes just because you can, does not mean you should. IMHO they would have been better off launching a separate V-class line to broaden tone choices. But to do a wholesale production cutover where clearly some are underwhelmed...hmmm? Not sure of the wisdom of that? 1st world problems.

[Larry Mal]

Clearly Taylor didn't go through all the trouble of re-voicing their guitars and the whole assembly line, not to mention training the guitar makers, just to save a buck on a few cuts of wood that no one will ever see. That's ludicrous- they make high end guitars that people pay high end prices for. They don't need to change that.

They did this because they genuinely think that the V bracing sounds better, and because they want to be distinct from anything that their competition can offer. Everyone here is talking about the older bracing and how it made them a contender for the Martin sound, but clearly Taylor wants to dominate in the Taylor sound and thats what they are doing here.

Making direct copies of Martins is what other people do, Taylor makes Taylors.

Besides, going to the V-bracing gives Taylor a world of free publicity- like, you know, what we are doing right now. Everyone reading this is a little intrigued as to what the V braced Taylors sound like, and we'll all pick one up some day just to see what that's all about.

Taylor is betting that a good percentage of people will decide to take one home.

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by Larry Mal

Clearly Taylor didn't go through all the trouble of re-voicing their guitars and the whole assembly line, not to mention training the guitar makers, just to save a buck on a few cuts of wood that no one will ever see. That's ludicrous- they make high end guitars that people pay high end prices for. They don't need to change that.

They did this because they genuinely think that the V bracing sounds better, and because they want to be distinct from anything that their competition can offer. Everyone here is talking about the older bracing and how it made them a contender for the Martin sound, but clearly Taylor wants to dominate in the Taylor sound and thats what they are doing here.

Making direct copies of Martins is what other people do, Taylor makes Taylors.

Besides, going to the V-bracing gives Taylor a world of free publicity- like, you know, what we are doing right now. Everyone reading this is a little intrigued as to what the V braced Taylors sound like, and we'll all pick one up some day just to see what that's all about.

Taylor is betting that a good percentage of people will decide to take one home.

I'm not a Martin fan, so I don't want my Taylor guitars to sound like a Martin. Every X-brace model I've owned has a lot more bottom-end than the V-braced models that I've played which makes them sound more balanced and louder. The V-braced models I've played sounded thin to me.

[jazzguy]

Originally Posted by FOG01

On the bright side, were it not for the V bracing I might not have tried a D-18, which really hit a sweet spot for me.

I'm still more inclined to agree with the idea Taylor is looking to find ways to keep selling new guitars new guitars in a saturated market over merely cutting costs, but you guys make some good points. Case in point, ES-1 vs ES-2.

Well this is a different issue. ES-2 is a huge improvement over ES-1, pretty much universally accepted. So this was not marking hype IMO. I have had personal experience with every pickup iteration Taylor has come out with. ES-2 perfect...no, but its pretty darn good.

[dodge]

It changed the sound, but the overall guitar player/customer response to the V Class bracing is 50/50 at best...at best!

Is that actually factual information or are you just making that number up? All I know is my local Taylor dealer has had the the best first quarter sales on Taylor guitars it's ever had. They can't keep V-class guitars in stock and that includes higher end models like the builders edition and 900 series models are selling very quickly. I personally love my 514ce V-class not because it's has V-class bracing but because it's a great guitar.

[Shuksan]

Originally Posted by Larry Mal

Clearly Taylor didn't go through all the trouble of re-voicing their guitars and the whole assembly line, not to mention training the guitar makers, just to save a buck on a few cuts of wood that no one will ever see. That's ludicrous- they make high end guitars that people pay high end prices for. They don't need to change that.

First of all, they would not have had to change their "whole assembly line" to accommodate the change to v-bracing. The assembly line could have remained essentially unchanged. The only change would be the production of a decreased number of braces of a smaller number of types to supply to the assembly line.

It's not ludicrous if one appreciates the importance of operating and production costs to a manufacturing business.

I wouldn't argue that reducing production costs was the prime motivator for creating v-bracing and switching over to it across their entire line, but there is no way it was not a factor. If you can come up with a new bracing system that results in guitars with a sound you perceive as an improvement, gives your marketing machine a way to differentiate your product from those of your competitors, AND yields lower production costs, that's a win-win-win.

[FOG01]

Originally Posted by jazzguy

Well this is a different issue. ES-2 is a huge improvement over ES-1, pretty much universally accepted. So this was not marking hype IMO. I have had personal experience with every pickup iteration Taylor has come out with. ES-2 perfect...no, but its pretty darn good.

https://youtu.be/3jVsEDIefiI

Taylor themselves said the ES-1 "faithfully reproduced" and sounded "exactly" like the guitar unamplified. I'm no expert but it sounded to me like it did. The ES-1 appears to me more invasive and complicated than the ES-2, hence my observation. I've used the ES-2 out live and I've gotta admit, I think the sound on my LR Baggs is more natural.

[Shades of Blue]

Originally Posted by varmonter

Working for a good portion of my adult life in manfacturing there
comes a time in the evolution of a company where
they have to think about demand. either expand or
make changes. The paradigm shifts from legacy to profits. Where you have to maximize
profits.It becoming the priority. So yea v class could certainly be a cost
efficiency compromise. My thoughts on them is that there is
not a significant enough change in sound to warrant my money.
They sound good. Different not Great. I suppose i may
own one someday as x braced taylors become extinct.
My thoughts on taylors has always been the higher up
you go in their numbers food chain the more bling your buying.
So the 414 you played is testamony to taylors
build quality. You get the same wood in a 914
but you also get an armrest , abalone inlay , Nice bursts , fretboard
inlays, nicer purfling ,better tuners ,smoother cutaways. bla bla bling.
This all takes labor time and parts. theyre beautiful. But do they sound better
than the 414...??

I've been saying from the initial announcement that Taylor must be experiencing a cost savings from V Bracing, or perhaps a savings in material or both. Why else would Taylor put all of their eggs in one basket without at least collecting public opinions/user feedback for a year or two? This HAD to be a cost cutting move, otherwise they wouldn't have gone all in from the get go. By expanding V Class Bracing to all model lines without as much as a year of experimentation and market feedback tell me they did this for reasons OTHER than customer satisfaction. This was a move to save money, and the consumer is either going to like it, or take their business elsewhere. I just don't like it. Smells bad to me.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by jazzguy

I too thought Andy's revoiced line was quite good and a noticeable improvement. I have only played one V class 7 and was underwhelmed. Loved he playability and rolled edges, finish, etc. But the tone was just OK. Very good but I could easily have done without it.

I have the same opinion. I was in one of the largest Taylor dealer's show room during lunch to complete a transaction. I wasn't there for a Taylor, but I tired all the new models with V bracing that they had displayed. Up the neck sounded great, but open chords left me totally cold. The new GPs, with the exception of the 717, left me cold too. 717 sounded a little Gibson-esque. I liked it. I liked the 2014-2017 models better.