Retirement Savings

[Nyghthawk]

The most recent statistics out there show that 1.8 million people in the US (2017) worked for minimum wage or less. That is $7.25.

A lot more make between that and $10.00.

You do not have savings or investments at that wage. No IRA's or 401Ks.

You want an exercise? Sit down and figure out how much someone has to make before they can afford to save/invest anything. Then look at prevailing wage numbers.

That explains exactly what the OP is so amazed by.

[Steve-arino]

I spent a lifetime worrying about money. My grandfather owned a NYC Furrier and lost it in the 50's. My father had a good size business (a mirror manufacturer in the Bronx) and lost it in the 70's. I've seen what it's like to have money and then to not have it. I got divorced when I was 55 and split our assets down the middle with my ex (very little $ to get divorced if you can do it through a mediator). Then I lost my high end software sales job when I was approaching 60. I spent a lot of time thinking it's not supposed to be like this! Seems like a lot of respondents to this post are in the enviable position of choosing a financial destination when young and then stayed the course. I think that's a dream for most of us.

It's taken me my lifetime - I'm 63 - to understand that in the long run, money means squat. You can downsize (I did), tell the kids they are on their own financially (I did - without getting into details they are doing GREAT :-) and I am such a proud dad - not because they make $ but because they are happy). I started playing guitar seriously when I was 60. I bought an RV and traveled the country for 6 mos. I go to dinner with friends. I've dated fairly regularly - still waiting for the woman of my dreams but have fun nevertheless. I do a ton of photography. I hike. Just bought a lightweight 22 speed bike which I will ride now :-).

My 60 year old brother had a major heart attack a few months ago. He just went back to work not because he had to but because that's what you do in our society.

Life is not linear. If you're still around tomorrow you'll be fine.

[JCave]

Originally Posted by Steve-arino

It's taken me my lifetime - I'm 63 - to understand that in the long run, money means squat.

Growing up in a very poor uneducated household, having money made sense along the way since. We've had "stuff" and figured out that's all it was, stuff. Having followed a different course than family, I was prepared for a big pay cut ten years ago. Worked for a lot of years to hang it up early to pursue my own interests.

My oldest brother earned his fourth divorce. Married 25 years and she kicked him out. 70 years old with several habits and no place to live. I kicked him out after six brutal months.

[Steve-arino]

Originally Posted by JCave

Growing up in a very poor uneducated household, having money made sense along the way since. We've had "stuff" and figured out that's all it was, stuff. Having followed a different course than family, I was prepared for a big pay cut ten years ago. Worked for a lot of years to hang it up early to pursue my own interests.

My oldest brother earned his fourth divorce. Married 25 years and she kicked him out. 70 years old with several habits and no place to live. I kicked him out after six brutal months.

What I meant to say was it took me a long time to learn that money is just a means to an end. During my working life, it was the end product. Retirement for me has been about downsizing my home, paying off debt and managing my budget and outflow effectively. Moving from LI to Florida was huge for me. And if I had to - I could survive with one nice guitar :-).

So the word “squat” was tongue in cheek. It’s important. But however much you have when you age out or retire (an inevitability) happiness in the last 3 innings has less to do with money than I ever realized.

[bil]

As I approach retirement, I think about this subject a lot. I’ve taken a different tack than many here. I have a retired military pension, a (soon to be) union pension, my wife’s and my social security, a small 401k, and lastly - and this is key - no debt. I’ve seen too many people retire heavily in debt and they struggle. Many end up at “McJobs” just to make ends meet.

Debt free is the only way to go.

[wguitar]

Maxing out 401k contributions (at least to the level of any matching company contribution) is Excellent, but I believe the most important thing is to REDUCE DEBT as much as possible. It's amazing how much of our earned income goes toward servicing our debt. Also, explore ways to REDUCE EXPENSES (while leaving enough in the kitty to buy Just One More guitar). And MOST IMPORTANTLY, adjust your lifestyle to a financially comfortable level (for you and yours) and ENJOY RETIREMENT !

[1neeto]

Originally Posted by rokdog49

Real Estate? I hope you're kidding.
Not in this day and age ...twenty-thirty years ago, maybe and if you did, good for you.
We built our house 12 years ago in a very nice new gated community in a nice town and if we sold it today we might gross 5% over what it cost. After we pay thetaxes on the profit, forget it. As I said in my previous post, it's paid for.
Did you read my post on page 2?
I would love to hear your thoughts.

Investing in real estate is fine in this day and age. You just have to be diligent, and understand the trends. Remember there’s more to real estate investing other than rental income or the flashy fix and flips you see on HGTV. So no, I’m not kidding.

And I read your first post, and all I can say is bravo. You’re quite the unicorn of this day and age. Most of us like nice things we truly can’t afford, and the only way to get them is by leveraging credit. I for example am a mechanic by trade, and I just switched jobs early this year which meant I had to re invest in new tools My tool bill has grown about $6000 since January, and it was either owe my soul to the tool man, or face the possibility of losing my job because of not having the necessary tools.

Sometimes, what we need is unaffordable without credit, some of us simply don’t have a choice. Really happy for you, that’s quite the story of financial discipline.

Originally Posted by Kerbie

Well, I started this thread to learn from other retirees and savers since my retirement isn't far away. I'm not asking average Americans to do anything, although with the advantage of time, small investors can accomplish remarkable goals.



It seems like you're suggesting all retirements savings are at commercial banks in passbook savings accounts. Even money market accounts will earn a lot more than your .1%. I would never suggest that average savers put their retirement assets into a bank savings account. Those are great places for your accessible, emergency funds, but not for a 30-year investment.

You seem to be advocating the accumulation of real estate, but not for the accumulation of other assets. Real estate is one type of equity investment; stocks are another. If you're purchasing real estate, you are saving into an equity investment. Financial planners often encourage other equities because the one of the largest investments many people have is their house. Utilizing other equities is simply a means of diversification.

I think self-directing an IRA is a great idea. You can put an IRA into any number of investment vehicles... real property, stocks, bonds, precious metals and other commodities and even money funds. The longer the time frame, the more aggressively it can be invested.

If your goal of passive income is to sit back and gather monthly rental checks, isn't sitting back and reaping dividends very much the same? The IRS doesn't consider that passive income, but portfolio income just gives you even more flexibility when writing off losses and you still don't have to work to earn it. Passive income is a powerful tool, but it's one of many ways to accomplish a monetary goal.

It seems like we're saying the same thing here even though you're happy with your money in only one asset type. That's your choice, but I don't understand how you figure you're not accumulating savings in your real estate. If you're using bank loans, that's fine... that's just using leverage which you can also do with other equities. I wish you well with your real estate and I appreciate your participation in this discussion.

Not trying to go back and forth really. I believe more in real estate because I understand it better than other investing options, and therefore it’s less risky at least for me. Other options like bonds and stocks seem to rely a bit too much on Wall Street. But yeah bottom line is the best way to prepare for retirement is to plan ahead, and maybe take a risk every now and then.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by Nyghthawk

The most recent statistics out there show that 1.8 million people in the US (2017) worked for minimum wage or less. That is $7.25.

A lot more make between that and $10.00.

You do not have savings or investments at that wage. No IRA's or 401Ks.

You want an exercise? Sit down and figure out how much someone has to make before they can afford to save/invest anything. Then look at prevailing wage numbers.

That explains exactly what the OP is so amazed by.

Very good point. We do have a description or term I remembered when the great Planet Money series was covering the last recession - good America and broken America. I feel there are good decision makers living in both groups. I sure see it where I work because the business demands having high skill and education staff mixed with the large number of front line workers.

A lot of people I work with really are trying live wisely and get ahead but it is really hard. People are holding more than one job. You see bicycle commuters where some ride a $1500-2000 bike and others are on a cheap bike in order to have that $2000 for basics. What you can argue as smart living is being done for very different reasons.

I use the same conf and meeting rooms the trainers use. In IT I see all the materials that are broadcast. Thee are some benefits not used because I catch some say they are not participating in savings options they have available because every penny goes to survival.

There are quite a few like me. I’m in an executive position but I’m a contractor. Benefits have to come from self in my case or hoping your employer has them. My CPA had a summary letter and analysis with my 2018 taxes that pointed out My LLC has new limitations on deductions and suggested I try to have fewer expenses put on my shoulders. Well, the advisers where I work have them putting more expenses on my for exactly the same reason. Some other contractors there do not have pass through or any sophistication in how they do taxes so they had a worse year.

One thing that might help is push or cut out the financial people that offer little. My wife and I created a living trust years ago and I noticed how easy it was for me to beat the professionals and how more and more they just buy ETFs while sucking off some of your earnings. I’m pushing the firm we use for managing those assets to do better. There’s a lot of talk about jobs being eliminated and times I think insurance and financial services jobs on commission need to be recognized as far more useless than truck drivers or a lot of factory floor jobs.

I don’t see easy answers for this overall issue. A few weeks ago the Wall St. Journal had a good article that mentioned peak middle class was 1985, and it showed where top and the rest of earners diverged from the median. For sure having skills where he whole world pays a living wage works but that won’t happen for everyone. The ways organizations try to be productive will also leave more out. For the latter just think about where we already have robots doing the work and how fast that’s accelerating right now.

[Mr. Jelly]

Originally Posted by wguitar

I believe the most important thing is to REDUCE DEBT as much as possible. It's amazing how much of our earned income goes toward servicing our debt. Also, explore ways to REDUCE EXPENSES (while leaving enough in the kitty to buy Just One More guitar). And MOST IMPORTANTLY, adjust your lifestyle to a financially comfortable level (for you and yours) and ENJOY RETIREMENT !

We've always kept our debt low to nonexistent. Interestingly I have found that my investing has evolved to a point where people pay me interest. Now days I stick with cities and government. So I've become the recipient of tax dollars. If people that are in debt looked at how much they are paying out to interest and then turned it around and imagine receiving that interest instead, or having it pile up in their bank accounts, they would enter a new paradigm.

[Golffishny]

My son-in-law made a statement to his parents that college grads now can't afford to live on one income and buy a house like they could 50 years ago. I corrected him, that our generation couldn't buy a house at first, we had to save for a down payment before the bank would lend us money. Then it was usually a fixer upper. As far as one income living, we had one TV in a central room and one radio. We didn't have to buy the newest iPhones when they came out or computers and iPads every other year. We ate at home and didn't buy pre-processed foods and snacks. We even grew some of our own. We went out maybe once a month for a moderately priced meal. We didn't need a walk-in closed for clothes, we had a couple drawers and a foot or so on a closet rod. It's not what you make that matters, it's what you spend vs keep. How much stuff do you really need? It's your choice. Today's youngsters are consumed with having the newest and lots of it.

[RedJoker]

Originally Posted by Golffishny

My son-in-law made a statement to his parents that college grads now can't afford to live on one income and buy a house like they could 50 years ago. I corrected him, that our generation couldn't buy a house at first, we had to save for a down payment before the bank would lend us money. Then it was usually a fixer upper. As far as one income living, we had one TV in a central room and one radio. We didn't have to buy the newest iPhones when they came out or computers and iPads every other year. We ate at home and didn't buy pre-processed foods and snacks. We even grew some of our own. We went out maybe once a month for a moderately priced meal. We didn't need a walk-in closed for clothes, we had a couple drawers and a foot or so on a closet rod. It's not what you make that matters, it's what you spend vs keep. How much stuff do you really need? It's your choice. Today's youngsters are consumed with having the newest and lots of it.

I would agree with him. Data shows that average household incomes haven't really changed in 50 years. On the other hand, a college degree is now just table stakes, the cost is much higher and students have much more debt.

So yeah, you can choose to spend less but that isn't the only thing going on.

[Scott R]

Probably the only smart thing I've done in my life was to take between 6% and 10% of my salary and put it into my 401k since I was 19 years old. I'm 46 now.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by Golffishny

My son-in-law made a statement to his parents that college grads now can't afford to live on one income and buy a house like they could 50 years ago. I corrected him, that our generation couldn't buy a house at first, we had to save for a down payment before the bank would lend us money. Then it was usually a fixer upper. As far as one income living, we had one TV in a central room and one radio. We didn't have to buy the newest iPhones when they came out or computers and iPads every other year. We ate at home and didn't buy pre-processed foods and snacks. We even grew some of our own. We went out maybe once a month for a moderately priced meal. We didn't need a walk-in closed for clothes, we had a couple drawers and a foot or so on a closet rod. It's not what you make that matters, it's what you spend vs keep. How much stuff do you really need? It's your choice. Today's youngsters are consumed with having the newest and lots of it.

Where is your evidence that supports today's younger people are living less wisely than other generations? They do have an issue where US residents are past peak middle class but otherwise they're still humans like the rest of us. They have school districts and the Internet giving then far more information.

This is where I get this feeling many do not see the reality of younger people. In my work day I supervise, train and support a lot of young workers at a sizable employer. A tremendous amount of my free time is dedicated to an organization with 600+ kids in education and team programs. I've got 3 teens of my own and a teacher wife so really try to see what's up with educating younger people. Young people wants are much like my own generation but a heck of of lot know more stuff at a younger age.

I'm very much convinced that people don't look outside their worldview thus not seeing how things really are. Too many try to stick everything into simple categories of 2 when there are more categories plus gaps between them.

[Nyghthawk]

In 1977 it was still possible to work part-time during the semesters, full time in the summer months and save for tuition and books. Therefore it was possible to graduate with no debt. That is no longer possible and young people without wealthy or foresighted parents are tens of thousands of dollars in debt before they get their first job. Blaming their situation on them is not justifiable.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by Nyghthawk

In 1977 it was still possible to work part-time during the semesters, full time in the summer months and save for tuition and books. Therefore it was possible to graduate with no debt. That is no longer possible and young people without wealthy or foresighted parents are tens of thousands of dollars in debt before they get their first job. Blaming their situation on them is not justifiable.

True. My daughter's graduating from high school in a month. My teen boys are looking for summer jobs. The first full week after my high school graduation I was among a bunch of pals since childhood who were in full-time blue collar jobs 40 hours a week until we packed up for college in late August.

There are a few high skill college students where I work in tech support jobs, customer service management, or doing entrepreneurial stuff. There fewer ag jobs taking the students these days.

My high performance daughter had a hand full of good school choices but only one private college gave us a truly good deal. Her choosing a public top ranked university will be her best bet for a reasonable retirement.