Arranging study group session #1

[tbeltrans]

Hey folks, check out this thread in the classical guitar sub-form here at AGF:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=465942

There are a number of people who can arrange stuff like this, and what I have found from further reading, is that they seem to have in common a solid grounding in fretboard harmony. Since I aspire to arrange like this, I figure that just maybe, I am lacking in that area. (I know, gee...do ya think?!?!?)

I was debating whether to bring this up in this thread, but decided it might be a good idea. I have decided that I really do need to really dig in and fill out my practical knowledge of fretboard harmony, and have been looking for a means to do that, short of taking a couple of semesters at the U. I found this book:

Fretboard Harmony by Jeffrey McFadden

It is used as a text in several top notch music schools, so since it is a textbook, it is expensive. Anyway, it arrived yesterday and looks to be a wonderful way for me to gain this knowledge.

So, I will be really focusing on working my way through this book for some time to come. I intend to continue with this study group, but may be a bit slower putting up arrangements. This book has 265 exercises in it, along with all the lessons, so it will be a challenge.

For those who may be interested in considering the book, it does require some musical background -

- a basic knowledge of diatonic theory (if you have it, you know what it means...)
- the ability to sight read standard notation for guitar (there is NO TAB)

There are fretboard diagrams where necessary to show intervallic relationships and that sort of thing.

The first thing the book addresses is knowing the notes on the fretboard, and then goes on to playing single note lines and the on to intervals and chords and harmonizing melodies, improve, creativity, etc.

The harmony is taught from a classical guitar perspective, and examples are drawn from the classical guitar literature.

I am not suggesting anyone else get this book because it is a commitment beyond what most of us would probably want to sign on to. However, for me, it is becoming clear that without this knowledge under my belt, my efforts at arranging will become stalled out sooner than I may want them to.

Tony

[Nailpicker]

Thanks for posting this link. His rendition is simply awesome IMO.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Nailpicker

Thanks for posting this link. His rendition is simply awesome IMO.

Yes it is.

Tony

[EllaMom]

I can't wait to watch the video in your post, Tony. My interenet is too slow where I am now to allow me to watch it without all kinds of starts and stops.

[Nailpicker]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Thanks for the nice arrangements by Tony, Nailpicker and Grinning Boy. It's interesting to hear what others are doing. For me with the tempo I chose it was a stretch to get enough song length out of it without going to far away from the melody and chord progressions or just being too repetitive. If I spend more time on it it will be to rearrange what I did somewhat - perhaps add a key change or slow the tempo and make a waltz out of it.

I find for me it is a fine line between staying overly simplisticly close to the melody and straying too far away. I tend toward the too close I think.

Repetition: I've always felt that many/most popular songs are too repetitive, but that is masked or camoflaged by changing lyrics so it's not so obvious. When one goes about trying to create an interesting instrumental that repetitiveness becomes more painfully obvious. I guess that's where changing up the chords, maybe changing the key, tempo, inserting interesting little runs comes in, but doing it gracefully and tastefully is the challenge. You certainly do that in your rendition of WUAS (and other songs I've heard you play). To me another way to try to swim around repetitiveness in songs is to play medleys, going back and forth (hopefully gracefully) between 2 or 3. That sometimes helps me deal with repetitive boredom when I can't seem to come up with a build, reach a mental roadblock of a single song that satisfies me.

Most songs I'm constantly 'diddling" with, doing a little this, a little that in hopes of improvement. Sometimes I hate to say it causes a devolvement that serves to frustrate me if I'm in the wrong state of mind, but serves as a challenge when I'm thinking positively. Some songs, mostly those I know and like best, I almost always play a little differently every time I play them for experimentation purposes and also to prevent boredom. Perhaps to prevent getting stale is a better way of putting it. The thing for me that is not good is when I have a song that I think is just maybe o.k. but not real good, but I'm too lazy or too involved working on other songs. I keep knowing I should improve upon it, but just don't seem to bring myself around to work on it for some reason.

[EllaMom]

Originally Posted by Nailpicker

I find for me it is a fine line between staying overly simplisticly close to the melody and straying too far away. I tend toward the too close I think.

Repetition: I've always felt that many/most popular songs are too repetitive, but that is masked or camoflaged by changing lyrics so it's not so obvious. When one goes about trying to create an interesting instrumental that repetitiveness becomes more painfully obvious. I guess that's where changing up the chords, maybe changing the key, tempo, inserting interesting little runs comes in, but doing it gracefully and tastefully is the challenge. You certainly do that in your rendition of WUAS (and other songs I've heard you play). To me another way to try to swim around repetitiveness in songs is to play medleys, going back and forth (hopefully gracefully) between 2 or 3. That sometimes helps me deal with repetitive boredom when I can't seem to come up with a build, reach a mental roadblock of a single song that satisfies me.

Most songs I'm constantly 'diddling" with, doing a little this, a little that in hopes of improvement. Sometimes I hate to say it causes a devolvement that serves to frustrate me if I'm in the wrong state of mind, but serves as a challenge when I'm thinking positively. Some songs, mostly those I know and like best, I almost always play a little differently every time I play them for experimentation purposes and also to prevent boredom. Perhaps to prevent getting stale is a better way of putting it. The thing for me that is not good is when I have a song that I think is just maybe o.k. but not real good, but I'm too lazy or too involved working on other songs. I keep knowing I should improve upon it, but just don't seem to bring myself around to work on it for some reason.

Really glad to read your comments on the repetitive nature of songs. I am finding that as well. The arrangements I'm learning just have you go back and repeat, exactly, the same verses over and over. Ugh! I am able to change them up ever so slightly, but I'm not advanced enough yet to really add interest and variety. One of the "worst" repetitive songs yet.... "Imagine." Imagine that! Now I want to go back and watch how arrangers here and in Show and Tell subforum might be changing up the verses of the songs they are playing.

[EllaMom]

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

Tony mentioned it would be nice if we could speak about our approach, etc. It didn't dawn on me to actually do it in a video, but now that I have my new video recorder I realized that I can! So this video is me blabbing about (I mean presenting) my approach. I promise not to plague this forum with too many videos!! It's sort of like when I got my new Wah Wah pedal...I didn't want to turn it off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMns...ature=youtu.be

Hi Paul. I finally had the opportunity to watch this video where you talk about how you arranged Wishing. That was great! I totally understand how lead sheets often have to be transposed, either going up an octave or to another key that is in a higher register, to fit the chords. What impressed me was your ability to transpose "by sight." I haven't yet reached the point of trying to move a melody up an octave, and imagine I'd have to pencil it out. I also like how you simply played the suggested chord on the first beat of each measure as a starting point. Again, very helpful. Finally, your notebooks look kind of like mine. I have one for songs, one for articles and such, and a third for diagrams and chord charts. Thanks again for taking the time to make and post this video. Much appreciated!

[EllaMom]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Hey folks, check out this thread in the classical guitar sub-form here at AGF:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=465942

There are a number of people who can arrange stuff like this, and what I have found from further reading, is that they seem to have in common a solid grounding in fretboard harmony. Since I aspire to arrange like this, I figure that just maybe, I am lacking in that area. (I know, gee...do ya think?!?!?)

I was debating whether to bring this up in this thread, but decided it might be a good idea. I have decided that I really do need to really dig in and fill out my practical knowledge of fretboard harmony, and have been looking for a means to do that, short of taking a couple of semesters at the U. I found this book:

Fretboard Harmony by Jeffrey McFadden

It is used as a text in several top notch music schools, so since it is a textbook, it is expensive. Anyway, it arrived yesterday and looks to be a wonderful way for me to gain this knowledge.

So, I will be really focusing on working my way through this book for some time to come. I intend to continue with this study group, but may be a bit slower putting up arrangements. This book has 265 exercises in it, along with all the lessons, so it will be a challenge.

For those who may be interested in considering the book, it does require some musical background -

- a basic knowledge of diatonic theory (if you have it, you know what it means...)
- the ability to sight read standard notation for guitar (there is NO TAB)

There are fretboard diagrams where necessary to show intervallic relationships and that sort of thing.

The first thing the book addresses is knowing the notes on the fretboard, and then goes on to playing single note lines and the on to intervals and chords and harmonizing melodies, improve, creativity, etc.

The harmony is taught from a classical guitar perspective, and examples are drawn from the classical guitar literature.

I am not suggesting anyone else get this book because it is a commitment beyond what most of us would probably want to sign on to. However, for me, it is becoming clear that without this knowledge under my belt, my efforts at arranging will become stalled out sooner than I may want them to.

Tony

WoW, Tony, this guy's rendition of Rainbow is exquisite! Thanks for sharing.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

Tony mentioned it would be nice if we could speak about our approach, etc. It didn't dawn on me to actually do it in a video, but now that I have my new video recorder I realized that I can! So this video is me blabbing about (I mean presenting) my approach. I promise not to plague this forum with too many videos!! It's sort of like when I got my new Wah Wah pedal...I didn't want to turn it off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMns...ature=youtu.be

Paul,

Wow! What a nice overview of what you do and HOW you do it! You are correct that we work in very similar ways. The cool thing is that our results are so different. I really am enjoying what you come up with.

I have been really busy with some of these other music projects that I forgot to come back here and watch you video. EllaMom's post brought this thread back to the fore, and reminded me to catch up here. I sure am glad I did. Thanks EllaMom!

Watching your video, I was thinking that it would be really fun to come up with a DVD length presentation on arranging. I have been in usenet groups (before forums) that folks would get together and contribute songs for a group CD. Though we could do that too, we could put together your video and any others (I could contribute one too...) onto a DVD giving people different perspectives on arranging for solo guitar. You did such a good job with your video, that I really think somebody else could get going on arranging from it. Nice work!

Tony

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Paul,

Wow! What a nice overview of what you do and HOW you do it! You are correct that we work in very similar ways. The cool thing is that our results are so different. I really am enjoying what you come up with.

I have been really busy with some of these other music projects that I forgot to come back here and watch you video. EllaMom's post brought this thread back to the fore, and reminded me to catch up here. I sure am glad I did. Thanks EllaMom!

Watching your video, I was thinking that it would be really fun to come up with a DVD length presentation on arranging. I have been in usenet groups (before forums) that folks would get together and contribute songs for a group CD. Though we could do that too, we could put together your video and any others (I could contribute one too...) onto a DVD giving people different perspectives on arranging for solo guitar. You did such a good job with your video, that I really think somebody else could get going on arranging from it. Nice work!

Tony

I'm finally getting up to date on these threads and I just saw the very nice comments from you and Carol. Thank you both very much!

These arranging threads have really ignited a spark in me. It's really cool getting to meet new friends with the same types of guitar passions that I have.

Carol, the wonderful threads you start here really kicked this off in my opinion. And Tony your idea to start the arranging study group threads was a fantastic one! And thanks for the nice words about my video. I would welcome the chance to become involved in such a DVD project. You are very creative with these things!

[tbeltrans]

A piano course I just recently ordered, showed up today. Uh oh. Now I have that AND rick-slo's thread, AND this, AND...!

Tony

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

A piano course I just recently ordered, showed up today. Uh oh. Now I have that AND rick-slo's thread, AND this, AND...!

Tony

Piano course???!!! How the heck did that get in there?? Did Amazon deliver to the wrong place?

[EllaMom]

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

I'm finally getting up to date on these threads and I just saw the very nice comments from you and Carol. Thank you both very much!

These arranging threads have really ignited a spark in me. It's really cool getting to meet new friends with the same types of guitar passions that I have.

Carol, the wonderful threads you start here really kicked this off in my opinion. And Tony your idea to start the arranging study group threads was a fantastic one! And thanks for the nice words about my video. I would welcome the chance to become involved in such a DVD project. You are very creative with these things!

Yeah, well....some people say I'm a bit of a pot stirrer!

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

Piano course???!!! How the heck did that get in there?? Did Amazon deliver to the wrong place?

No, I have been teaching myself to play piano. That seems like more of a social thing to do than solo guitar (which seems more personal to me).

Around here, amazon is amazing. They seem to have a deal with the USPS to deliver on Sundays, and now they have opened a big shipping warehouse in one of the southern suburbs. I would bet that we get deliveries from Amazon faster than waiting in line at a brick and mortar store.

Anyway, that said, this came directly from the folks that make the course. It is a sort of "guitaristic" approach to playing the piano. Quite interesting.

Tony

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

No, I have been teaching myself to play piano. That seems like more of a social thing to do than solo guitar (which seems more personal to me).

Around here, amazon is amazing. They seem to have a deal with the USPS to deliver on Sundays, and now they have opened a big shipping warehouse in one of the southern suburbs. I would bet that we get deliveries from Amazon faster than waiting in line at a brick and mortar store.

Anyway, that said, this came directly from the folks that make the course. It is a sort of "guitaristic" approach to playing the piano. Quite interesting.

Tony

Well that is very impressive! It would seem piano would teach you so much about theory and intervals etc.

My brother plays the keys in my family. He does become the center of attention at gatherings!