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  #16  
Old 02-22-2020, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Jimi2 View Post
Thanks all. Sounds like I need to just continue slogging through with the memorization and the reading skill will come in time. I’m a pretty solid intermediate player overall - and have just gotten serious again in the last 18 months...My ultimate goal is not to be a great classical player, as that doesn’t fully align with my interests, so there’s a lot of different aspects for me to focus on - the reading, the theory, the ear training, composition, and all the different genres I’m into. I guess it’s just frustrating that I have to spend so much time memorizing pieces, then go to my lesson, get a “yeah that sounds good” from my teacher and then move on, forgetting the piece I just slaved over. He’s a very talented player in multiple genres, and a long ago conservatory guy, but I’m starting to think he’s not a great teacher. I basically get NO exercises, or ear training guidance, and we only discuss theory superficially if I really pin him down with questions. I do write my own music, so like I said earlier, analyzing the pieces’ structure is definitely of interest.

Part of my original motivation for learning to read was the hope that eventually I’d be able to write down music I hear in my head, and also that I could read written music and hear/sing it without an instrument. Unfortunately, I was always discouraged from being musical in my youth, so I’m just getting underway with the reading in mid life though I’m working hard. I’m starting to wonder if that goal of being that proficient is too lofty....
Try something like GuitarPro to "write down" what you hear in your head. I use it quite a bit.
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  #17  
Old 02-22-2020, 06:42 AM
FrankHS FrankHS is offline
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Originally Posted by dkstott View Post
going back to the OP original question; There's a nice book called "The Classical Guitar Collection" by Joseph Harris from Hal Leonard. 50 favorites by 26 composers & all of which are provided in standard notation and TAB....snip

But for me it became too annoying when working on a new piece via standard notation to discover that I was playing it at the wrong location on the guitar fretboard.

I'd have spent hours noting right hand fingering & left hand positions on the sheet music only to have to start all over again....snip
Dave
But once into the deep weeds of CG transcriptions, this annoyance gives way to becoming welcome opportunities instead. For example, I purchased Doug Niedt's "Play It Like a Pro" tutorial for "Recuerdos DLA." For at least half of the measures, (in a 4 minute piece) he shows 2, 3, or 4 choices to finger or otherwise approach each measure or phrase. Although he explains the pros and cons of the choices, the player should not only try each one, but work with a couple of them for awhile before settling on "the best". I have also practiced a given fingering for months before realizing the wisdom of a different fingering (for example on different strings, yeilding a different tone quality.) That's just the nature of classical guitar. But sure, CG TAB is a way to get up and running in short order, sometimes the easiest way to stay motivated and not bog down. JMO.
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Old 02-22-2020, 07:03 AM
MC5C MC5C is offline
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I have a friend who is an excellent performing classical guitarist, also a teacher. she commented once that she spent three months learning how to play a piece that she had transcribed for guitar. It took her that long to figure out how to play and perform a piece that she had actually written, transcribing from some other instrument for the guitar. Three months to work out the fingering, the flow, how to take what she had written and put in on the instrument. The standard for performing classical guitar is from memory, you work up the piece, memorize it, perform it. It's considered a tad gauche to need sheet music, although she and probably everyone else does perform with sheet music from time to time and for some of their repertoire.
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Old 02-22-2020, 02:10 PM
Paraclete Paraclete is offline
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Originally Posted by Jimi2 View Post
How do you guys go about learning classical pieces? For me, it’s usually a hugely time consuming process as I need to memorize everything in order to be able to watch my left hand. And then I feel like it’s not benefitting my reading skills so much - I’m just slowly working out the fingerings, and then leaving the written page behind. I’m also studying folk/blues/jazz fingerstyle , and I’m almost through the first Frederick Noad book with my instructor, but I’m starting to wonder if I would be better served allocating practice time to other aspects. On the other hand, I do want to be a good reader, and I’m also interested in composition, so picking things up from study pieces is appealing. That’s hard as well though, because my instructor won’t really discuss theory. Any thoughts?
Classical guitar is complicated. It takes a lot of patience and slow, disciplined practicing. That said, you probably need to stop relying on watching your left hand. If you work on anything, work on muscle memory of where your frets and hand position are. I have the opposite problem...
of often getting thrown off if I look at my left hand when I’m trying to memorize something. Is your teacher a classical guitarist?

As for the comments by others about TAB....there is a serious lack of comprehensive information in TAB, even well-done TAB. I can read it very well, but I do not on classical. It actually slows me down considerably, as it does not show any shape or pattern to the music, only numbers and technical information. Helpful for those who cannot read standard notation fluently, but inefficient for those who can.
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  #20  
Old 02-22-2020, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Paraclete View Post
Classical guitar is complicated. It takes a lot of patience and slow, disciplined practicing. That said, you probably need to stop relying on watching your left hand. If you work on anything, work on muscle memory of where your frets and hand position are. I have the opposite problem...
of often getting thrown off if I look at my left hand when I’m trying to memorize something. Is your teacher a classical guitarist?

As for the comments by others about TAB....there is a serious lack of comprehensive information in TAB, even well-done TAB. I can read it very well, but I do not on classical. It actually slows me down considerably, as it does not show any shape or pattern to the music, only numbers and technical information. Helpful for those who cannot read standard notation fluently, but inefficient for those who can.
Interesting - both Frederick noad and my teacher advocate memorization precisely so that you can watch your left hand. I figured this was the right approach given the complicated fingerings and position changes in relatively complex pieces. If I could watch the page rather than my hand, it would at least mitigate the need to memorize....
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  #21  
Old 02-22-2020, 03:25 PM
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My teacher went to New England conservatory, so yes. Though he’s branched out into other genres.
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  #22  
Old 02-22-2020, 04:16 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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... you can watch your left hand.
It is pretty common for classical musicians of a variety of instruments to pay careful attention to one's hands. Many practice in front of a mirror so that they can see what they are doing.

Once beyond a certain stage of accomplishment, desired patterns of movement become engrained and second nature and one doesn't need to look at them anymore to aid in developing or maintaining the desired behaviour. It can be, however, an important tool at certain stages of development.
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  #23  
Old 02-22-2020, 04:22 PM
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Virtually all classical guitar pros watch their fretting hands a fair amount of time (more or less depending on how frequently and how far the fretting hand moves up or down the fretboard).
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  #24  
Old 02-22-2020, 04:47 PM
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Andrew York is definitely not like others.

https://youtu.be/MV1zx-DsALQ
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  #25  
Old 02-22-2020, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Jimi2 View Post
Interesting - both Frederick noad and my teacher advocate memorization precisely so that you can watch your left hand. I figured this was the right approach given the complicated fingerings and position changes in relatively complex pieces. If I could watch the page rather than my hand, it would at least mitigate the need to memorize....
I think it's good to memorize so as not have to rely on the written score.
Memorizing pieces cold has always been a chore for me. A couple of things have helped me a lot though:
- When I work on a new piece, I memorize it backwards, i.e. start at the last measure and finish at the first. (A trick that I learned from a David Russell interview. He uses that. It made a lot of sense to me when he explained it.)
- When I've learned a piece and can play it from memory I'll nearly always look at my left hand. It's how I was taught and it's a hard habit to break. But, during the memorization phase, I'll purposely look away from the fretboard. I find that it accelerates the learning process. I think it's because it makes me concentrate more on what I'm doing and where I'm going. It makes me think more about which notes I need to be playing. It's very difficult to do and keep time, but it's more about playing/cementing in the correct notes, rather than performing the piece in time. It's similar to ADM (Aim Directed Movement), which is a theory I learned years ago. The idea/goal of ADM, as I recall, is to never play a note or chord in a passage unless you're 100% certain it is the correct one. Easier said that done , and it might take you a long time to get through a piece or a phrase, but it does force you not to be lazy as you practice, especially when learning new music.
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Old 02-22-2020, 05:12 PM
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Andrew York is definitely not like others.

https://youtu.be/MV1zx-DsALQ
That was a good example. Fretting hand barely moving and you can stare off in space, but when moving around like later in the video you watch the hand.
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  #27  
Old 02-22-2020, 07:42 PM
Paraclete Paraclete is offline
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Originally Posted by Jimi2 View Post
Interesting - both Frederick noad and my teacher advocate memorization precisely so that you can watch your left hand. I figured this was the right approach given the complicated fingerings and position changes in relatively complex pieces. If I could watch the page rather than my hand, it would at least mitigate the need to memorize....
I don’t mean to not ever watch your left hand, but don’t rely entirely on it. I think perhaps I oversimplified. In the course of learning, you should be able to do both, at least on the less complex parts, and it’s about being comfortable with position so that you are not constantly relying on visual to mark your place on the neck. It can speed up the learning process. For example, most guitarists I know (who are not classically trained) have no idea what they are doing unless they have fret markers. If you have to constantly have to look up and down from the music, it’s slow and tedious. I do watch my left hand when I get a piece learned, to reinforce clean technique and better precision. (Probably we need to keep in mind that I was classically trained first on violin, and so it’s a bit of a different discipline that might carry over for me.)
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  #28  
Old 02-23-2020, 07:28 PM
Jimi2 Jimi2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Paraclete View Post
I don’t mean to not ever watch your left hand, but don’t rely entirely on it. I think perhaps I oversimplified. In the course of learning, you should be able to do both, at least on the less complex parts, and it’s about being comfortable with position so that you are not constantly relying on visual to mark your place on the neck. It can speed up the learning process. For example, most guitarists I know (who are not classically trained) have no idea what they are doing unless they have fret markers. If you have to constantly have to look up and down from the music, it’s slow and tedious. I do watch my left hand when I get a piece learned, to reinforce clean technique and better precision. (Probably we need to keep in mind that I was classically trained first on violin, and so it’s a bit of a different discipline that might carry over for me.)
Ah ok, yeah, I’m able to read from the page and not look at my hand when things are simpler and position changes aren’t happening. But when things are more complicated, it’s much harder. I’d love to be able to just read and play and not worry about the memorization so much as I have so many directions to go in my practicing.
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  #29  
Old 02-23-2020, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by dkstott View Post
Andrew York is definitely not like others.

https://youtu.be/MV1zx-DsALQ
I really enjoyed that piece. I was not familiar with him. I often appreciate emotion and a sense of directness in music, rather than showy technique. I’m sure Andrew is very capable, but the focus seems to be the piece rather than cramming in as many runs as possible.
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  #30  
Old 02-25-2020, 08:28 AM
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I have the opposite problem...
of often getting thrown off if I look at my left hand when I’m trying to memorize something. Is your teacher a classical guitarist?
I have the same problem. In fact I play often with my eyes closed. Some runs require a quick look just to get the position right. That's why I like a side dot on the 7th fret. But then it's back to eyes closed. When I am learning I visualize it in my head and if I look at my left hand it's like looking at someone else's hand.

I never tried the practice of using a mirror that could be really interesting.

I think when I started learning I got it in my head somehow that not looking was the way it was supposed to be done but now I can see that as some sort of mind body disconnect becasue that sure is what it feels like.
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