Newbie wondering about the nylons

[mtnman]

Background - hobbiest, started playing 20 some odd years ago. Have had a low end Takamine (EF-349) for about 18 years and have always loved it. Also have a Seagull 12 string (SM12). I mostly play without a pick - even while strumming. In fact, I like it when my strings get old and sound more dull.

Interesting note: I've never had any problems with humidity and the Tak. It's insanely dry in Colorado, but the Tak has never faltered. The Seagull on the other hand (cedar top) is about to be scrap because I neglected the humidification situation. I'm trying to bring it back, but don't really want to be a humidity cop. My guitars currently hang on string swings - but I guess this is a whole other discussion.

Lately I've really gotten into Jason Mraz, Zac Brown, and Jack Johnson. All tend to play nylons a lot...Jason and Zac play Taylors. I've noodled around in the local GC on the steel string taylors in the $1k to $2.5k range and loved the experience. I think I want a nylon Taylor, but haven't found a local dealer in Denver with a bunch to try.

My questions are for those who have owned nylons up and down the range. I'm no collector, but could spring for an NS72ce (or Mraz signature) if I wanted. I don't think I'd go for a BTO. If $1.5k gets it done I'm happy. If I "have" to spend $3k I can do that too.

Question:

1) I've read threads about differences in the steel strings saying that from the 3x series up there isn't a ton of difference unless you have golden ears for tone. Is there a similar thought for the nylons?

2) What's the main difference between the concert and auditorium? This will be mostly for me, myself, and I. However I am finishing out my basement with a project studio where I'll record myself and perhaps my son. I like my dreadnought Takamine, but without a local comparison for Taylors it is hard to know what to expect between the different bodies - is one better for recording?

3) Humidity - am I going to have to baby the Taylor or will it be a warrior like my Tak? I've seen Bob's videos on the Taylor site where he brings one back to life (cracks and all)...I don't want that to be me.

Thanks for anything you can share about your own experience or research.

[ewalling]

Welcome to the forum!

Living in Miami, I don't have too many problems with humidity.

However, I have owned three NS Taylors: a 44 (auditorium), a 42 (concert), and a 72 (concert). I have to say I don't like 'em much, and that's because for me they've been a disappointment acoustically. While I appreciate that these guitars are supposed to shine when plugged in, I have expected a little more in the acoustic department. I found the bigger grand auditorium especially disappointing as I expected a bigger sound from such a big guitar. The concerts, the 42 and the 72, were super comfortable to play but still kind of nothingy for acoustic sound.

That's been my impression. I've wanted to like them but they don't do much for me. Others will probably have more positive things to say.

[mtnman]

Originally Posted by ewalling

That's been my impression. I've wanted to like them but they don't do much for me. Others will probably have more positive things to say.

Thanks for the input. Interesting...as I'd be miking these and not using the pickups. But mostly, I'd just be pickin' and grinnin'. Did you ever take one into a studio?

[ewalling]

Originally Posted by mtnman

Thanks for the input. Interesting...as I'd be miking these and not using the pickups. But mostly, I'd just be pickin' and grinnin'. Did you ever take one into a studio?

No, I didn't. This was just home use.

Coincidentally, in my continuing search for a good nylon crossover, I've ordered an Ovation 2073lx Classic. That's on the strength of memories of playing with someone who had its predecessor 20 years ago. His sounded pretty good and it has 12 frets to the neck, which I prefer on a nylon string guitar. I think the new Yamaha NTX series looks very interesting, too.

[NAFIGATOR]

Originally Posted by mtnman

1) I've read threads about differences in the steel strings saying that from the 3x series up there isn't a ton of difference unless you have golden ears for tone. Is there a similar thought for the nylons?

2) What's the main difference between the concert and auditorium? This will be mostly for me, myself, and I. However I am finishing out my basement with a project studio where I'll record myself and perhaps my son. I like my dreadnought Takamine, but without a local comparison for Taylors it is hard to know what to expect between the different bodies - is one better for recording?

3) Humidity - am I going to have to baby the Taylor or will it be a warrior like my Tak? I've seen Bob's videos on the Taylor site where he brings one back to life (cracks and all)...I don't want that to be me.

Thanks for anything you can share about your own experience or research.

1. This one is a tough to question to answer, but I'll try. I my opinion there is a significant (or at least fair) difference in sound as you climb up the model ladder. However (and please don't take it in a bad way) if you are playing for 20 years, being able to spend 3K on the guitar and never had a desire to explore beyond Seagull until now, perhaps 3 or 4 series Taylor would be more then sufficient. Either way - try them all! But don't spent more money, if you don't hear much difference, just because it's higher model number.

2.The main difference between the concert and auditorium is a body size. Auditorium body is larger than concert. In theory larger body produces louder sound with more volume. However this is very subjective, again - try them all.

3. Yes, you will have to baby your Taylor. It is not going to be a "warrior" like your laminated Tak. Taylor is fairly delicate guitar, like most all solid wood high grade instruments. Again, going back to what you are describing - your guitars took some abuse and you will have to change your habits a little. Otherwise your Taylor will end up in the video with Bob :-)))

I hope I am not being too harsh. In the nut shall you need to learn to remember that you have a high end guitar and watch the humidity. Believe it or not, but this is what all high end guitar owners do. It is not hard, once you are use to it. After all you should have so much enjoyment with a high end guitar that taking care of it would become a part of the process. Like polishing that brand new 70k sports car :-)))

[mtnman]

Originally Posted by NAFIGATOR

1. This one is a tough to question to answer, but I'll try. I my opinion there is a significant (or at least fair) difference in sound as you climb up the model ladder. However (and please don't take it in a bad way) if you are playing for 20 years, being able to spend 3K on the guitar and never had a desire to explore beyond Seagull until now, perhaps 3 or 4 series Taylor would be more then sufficient. Either way - try them all! But don't spent more money, if you don't hear much difference, just because it's higher model number.

Well - "playing for 20 years" can be defined different ways. In my case it's mostly plunking around, not anything serious. If I can't find a local shop that has the whole range maybe I'll focus on the 3 or 4 series to start.

Originally Posted by NAFIGATOR

2.The main difference between the concert and auditorium is a body size. Auditorium body is larger than concert. In theory larger body produces louder sound with more volume. However this is very subjective, again - try them all.

Thanks - that's what I thought. It's good to see that you say it's very subjective and not completely apparent.

Originally Posted by NAFIGATOR

3. Yes, you will have to baby your Taylor. It is not going to be a "warrior" like your laminated Tak. Taylor is fairly delicate guitar, like most all solid wood high grade instruments. Again, going back to what you are describing - your guitars took some abuse and you will have to change your habits a little. Otherwise your Taylor will end up in the video with Bob :-)))

I'm cool with that. In fact, I've looked into buying purpose built cabinets - guitar humidors - specifically because I wouldn't want to ruin anything of real value. I'll probably end up building a humidified closet with glass doors (this Taylor won't be the only axe needing care).

Originally Posted by NAFIGATOR

I hope I am not being too harsh. In the nut shall you need to learn to remember that you have a high end guitar and watch the humidity. Believe it or not, but this is what all high end guitar owners do. It is not hard, once you are use to it.

You are not being too harsh at all. I just want to have a good idea of what other people's experiences have been. I didn't worry too much about caring for my $600 guitars as they were replaceable.

Originally Posted by NAFIGATOR

After all you should have so much enjoyment with a high end guitar that taking care of it would become a part of the process. Like polishing that brand new 70k sports car :-)))

Yeah, I convinced my wife that she really didn't want the Porsche Cayenne because the VW Touareg was built on the same platform in the same plant and didn't carry the premium Porsche upcharge. Since it's hers I pay someone else to polish it. ;-)

Now I can focus on acquiring some quality guitars.

[stream]

I've never played a 700-series nylon that I thought sounded $1000 better than a 300-series nylon. You can get a used 300-series for right at four figures. If you're basically buying it to noodle around, I'd recommend a NS34ce.

However, if you're prepared to spend up to $3K and think you may grow more attached to classical/crossovers, you should look into a used Goodall Crossover. I think you'd find a lot more tonal character and maturity in that caliber of guitar.

[CatManTG]

There is a drastic difference between NS24ce and NS74ce. I haven't been able to play any of the intermediate models.

The NS24ce sounded dead and uneven.

The NS74ce--which I now own--while not very loud, has excellent definition and balance across its entire range when unplugged. Plugged in, it really shines.

-David

[mtnman]

Originally Posted by stream

I've never played a 700-series nylon that I thought sounded $1000 better than a 300-series nylon. You can get a used 300-series for right at four figures. If you're basically buying it to noodle around, I'd recommend a NS34ce.

I'm going to try to find a NS34ce today to play.

Originally Posted by stream

However, if you're prepared to spend up to $3K and think you may grow more attached to classical/crossovers, you should look into a used Goodall Crossover. I think you'd find a lot more tonal character and maturity in that caliber of guitar.

It doesn't sound like there is a drastic difference between the 34 and 74 (based on comments so far). It seems like until I play them I won't know for sure. The local Goodall dealer is an hour away from me in good traffic. I'll hold off until I have a chance to play the Taylors.

Thanks for the input!

[mtnman]

Originally Posted by CatManTG

There is a drastic difference between NS24ce and NS74ce. I haven't been able to play any of the intermediate models.

The NS24ce sounded dead and uneven.

The NS74ce--which I now own--while not very loud, has excellent definition and balance across its entire range when unplugged. Plugged in, it really shines.

-David

This is exactly the type of input I was looking for...thanks! Now I'm thinking I might blend the internal electronics with some mics if that's where they really shine.

I'm loving all the feedback. Anyone else care to share their impressions?

[Polyhymnia]

If money was no object, I'd go custom. It's hard to get everything you want in something less than $3K. It's like anything else in life, you have to compromise if you don't want to pay an arm and a leg, and even then you probably won't be fully satisfied (I offer all the high-end custom guitars for sale on this board as evidence).

I'm on my fourth nylon now, and it's a NS74CE. It doesn't have the volume and tone of the Cervantes Crossover I just sold, but it has the 14-fret neck, side markers, and advanced pickup system I wanted, and it's really a beautiful guitar. It sounds louder and more complex tonally than the NS24CE I sold, but frankly not by as much as I'd hoped. But at the same time, my violinist loves it for its balance, and it sound heavenly plugged in. You can certainly buy a louder guitar, but the '74 is for my purposes a very nice ax. It's beautiful to look at, it feels good, its sound moves in my gut, and I can find my way around the neck. The next step would be a custom pro instrument, but given that I haven't yet made a dime from the Taylor, I think I'll hold on that for a while.

You really should try them out. You sound like an affluent player; take a trip to the Bay Area or Seattle and spend some time with different guitars. And yes, find a way to humidify your instruments. That's just simple maintenance, like waxing your Touareg.

[Larry M]

Hi, Mtnman. Welcome.

I live in Colorado too and have several solid-top nylon string guitars. My oldest is a Tak with a solid cedar top and pickup (from around 1991). I always keep them humidified and have never had a problem with them (cracks, frets, etc.) from the dry air. It's a pain to keep them humidified, but worth the trouble.

Can't comment much on the Taylors. They seem to get mixed reviews but are generally fine guitars.

I have 2 crossovers (one Tak and one Fender), the 1991 Tak mentioned above, and a concert classical that was made by a local luthier. They are all really nice guitars, each with their own feel, voice, and personality and I use them for different settings. The prices range from a used Fender for about $400 to about $3000 for the concert classical (bought in 1997). The point is, I like them all and the prices are all over the range. You don't have to spend a lot of money for a really good guitar---fit, finish, tuners, tone, etc. The hardware, woods, and richness of my concert model far outshine my lowly Fender. But for jazz, bossa, and playing at church, the Fender and my Tak crossover work great and sound good amplified.

The neck profiles, action, body size/shape, number of frets to the body, etc. are all different and really influence the type of music I want to play on each. Important things to consider in your search.

Sorry I couldn't answer too much specifically, but hopefully something in this response is helpful.

Feel free to PM me if you have questions or would like more information.

LarryM

[mtnman]

Originally Posted by Polyhymnia

If money was no object, I'd go custom. It's hard to get everything you want in something less than $3K. It's like anything else in life, you have to compromise if you don't want to pay an arm and a leg, and even then you probably won't be fully satisfied (I offer all the high-end custom guitars for sale on this board as evidence).

Money is an object for me (my wife calls me cheap, yet she drives the luxury suv mentioned above). But, I'm beginning to wonder if my strategy is just going to be buy, sell, buy, sell until I find the right one. If that is the case I might start in the $2k category and work my way into my preferences.

Originally Posted by Polyhymnia

I'm on my fourth nylon now, and it's a NS74CE. It doesn't have the volume and tone of the Cervantes Crossover I just sold, but it has the 14-fret neck, side markers, and advanced pickup system I wanted, and it's really a beautiful guitar. It sounds louder and more complex tonally than the NS24CE I sold, but frankly not by as much as I'd hoped. But at the same time, my violinist loves it for its balance, and it sound heavenly plugged in. You can certainly buy a louder guitar, but the '74 is for my purposes a very nice ax. It's beautiful to look at, it feels good, its sound moves in my gut, and I can find my way around the neck. The next step would be a custom pro instrument, but given that I haven't yet made a dime from the Taylor, I think I'll hold on that for a while.

Great info here - thanks for taking the time to share it. I found a used NS74ce from a local individual for $1.8k. Maybe I'll go check it out. I went to the nearest GC today and they didn't have any of the NS series. I did play a number of sub $2k Taylor, Martin, and Breedlove steel strings. It had been a while, and now I remember that I prefer the auditorium body over the concert due it sounding more well rounded.

Originally Posted by Polyhymnia

You really should try them out. You sound like an affluent player; take a trip to the Bay Area or Seattle and spend some time with different guitars.

I've thought about a trip to the Northwest designed for guitar exploration. I might be able to convince the wife that California (and a guided tour at Taylor Guitars) is a good destination...not sure about Seatle. She already has a California wine country trip planned with her friend in October. Maybe I should tag along and do guitars while they do wine. I bet I could convince a buddy to come along (he did the whole 80s hair band in LA gig).

Originally Posted by Polyhymnia

And yes, find a way to humidify your instruments. That's just simple maintenance, like waxing your Touareg.

Will do, but I pay folks to wax the Touareg. My MDX? Well, remember my Seagull?

[mtnman]

Originally Posted by Larry M

Hi, Mtnman. Welcome.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Larry M

I live in Colorado too and have several solid-top nylon string guitars. My oldest is a Tak with a solid cedar top and pickup (from around 1991). I always keep them humidified and have never had a problem with them (cracks, frets, etc.) from the dry air. It's a pain to keep them humidified, but worth the trouble.

Yeah - I'll get this piece covered with either a cabinet, closet, or room.

Originally Posted by Larry M

Can't comment much on the Taylors. They seem to get mixed reviews but are generally fine guitars.

I'm curious what the mixed reviews are....

Originally Posted by Larry M

I have 2 crossovers (one Tak and one Fender), the 1991 Tak mentioned above, and a concert classical that was made by a local luthier. They are all really nice guitars, each with their own feel, voice, and personality and I use them for different settings. The prices range from a used Fender for about $400 to about $3000 for the concert classical (bought in 1997). The point is, I like them all and the prices are all over the range. You don't have to spend a lot of money for a really good guitar---fit, finish, tuners, tone, etc. The hardware, woods, and richness of my concert model far outshine my lowly Fender. But for jazz, bossa, and playing at church, the Fender and my Tak crossover work great and sound good amplified.

The neck profiles, action, body size/shape, number of frets to the body, etc. are all different and really influence the type of music I want to play on each. Important things to consider in your search.

Sorry I couldn't answer too much specifically, but hopefully something in this response is helpful.

Feel free to PM me if you have questions or would like more information.

LarryM

Yes, you've been very helpful. I'm definitely looking at a crossover. In college I took a couple classical classes and just didn't enjoy the difference in the neck.

Thanks again.

[gary0319]

As long as you're out shopping, do yourself a favor and try on some of the nylon crossovers made in Spain, Japan, and other Pac Rim countries.

As much as I like Taylor steel strings, I've never played an NS that I cared for. To me they are just too dull acoustically. It's only my opinion, but I think that steel string manufacturers really have a difficult time making a nylon string guitar that has a light enough construction to be an effective instrument acoustically.

My preference is for Spanish made classicals or crossovers.

Good luck on your search and welcome to the AGF,

Gary