As a solo performer, do you really need a mixer?

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by varmonter

I hate to be mis- quoted like i was in post 71 . Just to be clear i prefer the sound of a pair
of powered speakers to a bose system any day all day.

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

I MIS-quote you.

I think that was perfectly clear.

In retrospect, I should've put <snip> in where I took out parts of your post, rather than using ellipses.

Thanks Apology accepted ..

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by varmonter

I MIS-quote you.

I think you forgot your ellipses.

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by Nama Ensou

It's always the drummer; not the drums. . . Drummers get too much leeway in the volume department and are always getting to set the volume by how they like to play . . .

Either that, or perhaps they just don't have a clue as to how loud the band ends up being to the audience?

You'd think a decent sound guy (especially one who works with/for the band) might say something to the drummer.

The "permissible exposure time" for 100db is a mere 15 minutes. 91db is 2 hrs. 88 db is 4 hrs.

If it were up to me, 90db would be the max permitted during any musical performance.

[Chriscom]

Coming to this late but I wanted to thank SongwriterFan for sharing his perspective on what became part of this discussion: Stick v. Not Stick. I wish you were at some of my gigs man, I could use help from a good soul like you! But apart from that, getting input from a hands-on and sympathetic member of the audience is something we rarely get here.

So random notes:

1. The tradeoffs of a solo performer using a mixer have been covered by now, but I'll add as a solo dude I prefer having a mixer. Almost a necessity anyway with my preferred setup into a Bose L1 Compact where you don't even have reverb without it. But as covered, having controls within reach is also essential. It's one of the reasons I didn't get the lovely Fishman SA330x; the outstanding expandability of the "expander" input mixer means you can set that up nearby but if you're having issues with Channels 1 & 2 you gotta go back to the unit. Apart from that though, I can't imagine not being able to shape my sound and run mild effects, I gotta have a mixer.

2. On Sticks or Nah, I live in a major metro area but apparently not in the Shangri La where top-notch sound engineers on standby to fine-tune conventional PAs fall out of the sky like confetti. I'm open to the idea that a well-managed conventional setup can be superior--the contention that professional sound reinforcement outfits don't use them is a major data point. But well-managed sticks can sound *amazing.* There's a duo in my area (two guitars, electric and acoustic, both are vocalists, an occasional sit-in) and they use a Bose L1 Model 2 and man do they sound great. Not good-enough. G R E A T.

3. I have nevertheless heard sticks being played way too loud, including last week, at a neighborhood bar. Bose L1 Model 2 with a B2 bass (the larger one) and sheesh dude do you get paid more if you crank it to 11?

4. As one of those who run around with a decibel-reader app on my phone, I highly recommend it. I was at my local pub half a year ago briefly listening to a band that was cranked to 12. My sound meter confirmed they were lunatics and I showed it to my buddy before leaving. He stayed and I haven't seen him in that venue since; I later learned his hearing was damaged.

Here's a link about that. "Permissible exposure time" means if you go beyond that, you will likely have permanent damage. At 100db you have 15 minutes.

http://dangerousdecibels.org/educati...me-guidelines/

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by Chriscom

I wish you were at some of my gigs man, I could use help from a good soul like you! But apart from that, getting input from a hands-on and sympathetic member of the audience is something we rarely get here.

You may have several people there who WANT to say something, but simply DON'T.

I generally don't say anything, unless I first get some sort of "read" that the musician is receptive to my input/feedback. That usually means that I know them quite well. But some I know I'm not that eager to give feedback to, and on rare occasion I've given feedback to somebody I'd never seen/heard before.

An example of the latter was a guy on acoustic and vocals who had somebody on electric accompanying him. I had never seen them before (and now that I think about, never since). I'm not usually one to ask for MORE of any guitar (especially electric lead), but I was hearing just enough to know that I liked what this guy was doing and that he could BARELY be heard.

As I recall, I waited until the first set was over to say something to him. He was EXTREMELY grateful, and after the first song of the next set, he looked over at me to see if I thought he was at the right volume (he was).

On the other hand, there's a trio (all play guitar or mandolin and also sing). One of them I know quite well, and he's very receptive to what I have to say. But he's not the one who's running the board. The other two guys just don't really seem all the receptive. When I say anything at all, I'll say "more mando and more vocals on guy #2) . . . or something like that . . . to the guy who's receptive. He'll then pass it on to the guy adjusting sound, who looks a bit perturbed. Usually that helps out, but rarely enough. I've never really gotten up the nerve to go up after the next song and say "just a bit more mando and still more vocals on guy #2, and maybe a bit more vocals on guy #3)".

I like to help, but I hate being possibly perceived as "imposing" my sense of "correct sound" on the musicians. It's a fine balance, and I probably swing too far to the latter.

On the other hand, for every guy like me, there's probably at least TWO who would rather hear LESS vocals than I like . . . I tend to like them very hot in the mix . . . unless the vocals are extremely off-key or annoying in some other way (which isn't that often . . I'm not THAT picky).

I'm there to hear what you have to say, so if I can't hear the vocals clearly, it's a bit annoying. Everybody else seems to be there to jibber-jabber.

[The Kid!]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

You may have several people there who WANT to say something, but simply DON'T.

If they do, it's usually after the gig is over.

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

I generally don't say anything, unless I first get some sort of "read" that the musician is receptive to my input/feedback. That usually means that I know them quite well. But some I know I'm not that eager to give feedback to, and on rare occasion I've given feedback to somebody I'd never seen/heard before.

Most cats aren't receptive. They aren't hearing from out front though, so...

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

An example of the latter was a guy on acoustic and vocals who had somebody on electric accompanying him. I had never seen them before (and now that I think about, never since). I'm not usually one to ask for MORE of any guitar (especially electric lead), but I was hearing just enough to know that I liked what this guy was doing and that he could BARELY be heard.

As I recall, I waited until the first set was over to say something to him. He was EXTREMELY grateful, and after the first song of the next set, he looked over at me to see if I thought he was at the right volume (he was).

So wait,... you told a guitar player that he could turn UP, and he was grateful? That almost never happens. (sarcasm)

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

On the other hand, there's a trio (all play guitar or mandolin and also sing). One of them I know quite well, and he's very receptive to what I have to say. But he's not the one who's running the board. The other two guys just don't really seem all the receptive. When I say anything at all, I'll say "more mando and more vocals on guy #2) . . . or something like that . . . to the guy who's receptive. He'll then pass it on to the guy adjusting sound, who looks a bit perturbed. Usually that helps out, but rarely enough. I've never really gotten up the nerve to go up after the next song and say "just a bit more mando and still more vocals on guy #2, and maybe a bit more vocals on guy #3)".

I bet you're a real hit at their gigs!

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

I like to help, but I hate being possibly perceived as "imposing" my sense of "correct sound" on the musicians. It's a fine balance, and I probably swing too far to the latter.

You may. You kinda gotta own the bar or venue to start telling people what to do, but if you approach it correctly and get the green light, before you start telling them what needs to change, you might be ok.

I usually walk up and say hi. Then I ask if they want me to tell them that it sounds great, or be honest. I say it kinda sarcastically, but good natured sarcasm. Then they usually ask what needs to be fixed.

I had a guy get mad at me once. I said, cool man. It's your mix. If you don't want your vocals to be heard, that works for me. They were too loud for the room. Conventional PA. Crazy loud drummer and guitarist. Stage volume was more to blame than the PA.

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

I'm not THAT picky).

Says the cat walking around other folks gigs with a db meter.

Just to prove that I don't hate portable column arrays, here's a situation where it works. Small coffeehouse gig where a good friend of mine does a Sunday morning sitar looping gig. Chill and relaxed. Low volume. Perfect system for that. He does a lot of music for yoga classes.

Here's a clip.



Could a conventional setup work here? Sure.
Could a conventional setup sound better? You betcha.
Does anybody there care which one, as long as they can talk, read, study, or eat brunch? Nope.

[varmonter]

I dont usually give tech advise at other peoples
gigs.I know alot of the musicians here in my area.
If i show up at a gig and they ask me hows the
mix . Ill be honest and say things like the vocals
need to be louder or everything could come down
a hair. People know me and respect my ear. This is
usually how i take advise when im playing.
Advise from someone i know and respect their opinion.
Not a stoner who shouts "turn it up"

[The Kid!]

Originally Posted by varmonter

I dont usually give tech advise at other peoples
gigs.I know alot of the musicians here in my area.
If i show up at a gig and they ask me hows the
mix . Ill be honest and say things like the vocals
need to be louder or everything could come down
a hair. People know me and respect my ear. This is
usually how i take advise when im playing.
Advise from someone i know and respect their opinion.
Not a stoner who shouts "turn it up"

This. If it's really bad, I'll ask if they want to know. They usually do.

[Chriscom]

They were too loud for the room.

Everyone is so blankety-blank loud. With young bands I write it off to inexperience and Immortal Youth Syndrome, but stupid is as stupid does.

With older performers (which I rate as anything past 30), it often means they can't register the damage they've done to themselves. Which is why I run around with a decibel meter.

Oh and maybe there's another factor: That dude who was punishing the room with a Bose L1 M2 cranked far beyond mercy, turns out he was wearing IEMs. That must provide some protection--for him!

[guitarwebguy]

Great conversations .... I have to say that even when I am playing with a band, we (I) always make a point of soliciting feedback (during breaks) from the audience as to our sound. I recognize that this may not be doable in all situations but we make the effort.

[Marty C]

So... Getting back to the original posted question. What you have should be fine without a mixer. The Fishstick is designed to make good sound, and make it simple. Without adding anything else.

[Chriscom]

Originally Posted by Marty C

So... Getting back to the original posted question. What you have should be fine without a mixer. The Fishstick is designed to make good sound, and make it simple. Without adding anything else.

Well it was kind of a trick question, unintentionally, in that the SA220 has a built-in mixer. So very doable for a solo performer, especially if you're happy with the pickup in your guitar.

I've often complained about the Sonitone pickup in my otherwise glorious GPRS1, but while doing some home recording recently was surprised at what a great sound I could get with some shaping through my Yamaha MG10XU.

One great thing I learned in this thread were comments from two or three of you saying you were happy just plugging in directly with your mic and guitar into a Bose L1 Compact--now that's performing without a mixer. I'd be frustrated without at least a little reverb for depth, but as far as the audio quality is concerned, I'd wager sometimes you just get lucky with the guitar/pickup/L1C interaction and all is well.

Edit: The OP has a Takamine EF341SC, which I bet sounds great through an SA220.

[Marty C]

I have that same guitar. It is a great sounding guitar. It does take a lot of processing to get the Sonitone sounding good. I can use a Play Acoustic (with Bodyrez) or a Zoom A3. Both with steep mid cuts. I love the guitar but I cannot plug this direct in to any source and get an acceptable sound.

I was thinking of buying that mixer so I am glad you get a good sound with it. Would you share some settings?

Sorry again to the OP!

[Chriscom]

deleted, initial attempt didn't carry image.

[Chriscom]

Okay I'm having trouble getting this right, hopefully this time it works:

Originally Posted by Marty C

I was thinking of buying that mixer so I am glad you get a good sound with it. Would you share some settings?

The GPRS1 is on channel 2. You should be able to see most settings but from top to bottom are gain, compression, high, mid, low, FX intensity, pan, and level.

Out of view is the master effects setting, I went with Rev Hall 1, parameter set just past noon (so like 51%--it's just another intensity setting, how much master reverb).

On the GPRS1, I have the tone control turned up from the bottom by maybe 70%.

My settings are a work in progress, I'm still working the upper end--I consider my higher frequencies as okay. But they really tamed the middle and low-end mud you can get, while providing, to me, a pretty good acoustic-y, airy, distinct but not harsh sound on the low end.

If you want to hear just guitar, Go to the 1:27 mark on this where I stop singing for a guitar break.

https://chrisfotos.com/track/1669435/i-saw-the-light

This was recorded into a Tascam DSP32SD, but I was using the Yamaha MG10XU instead of the onboard EQ. There's another song on that site that's recorded differently and worse. The song I'm linking to sounds through my decent JBL studio monitors and Sennheiser headphones, but I haven't had a chance to pipe it into my Bose L1 Compact. (It sounds hideous through my very tinny HP Spectre folio speakers).

Virtually all of these settings are available on the OP's SA220 built-in mixer. Differences include multiple reverb/delay options--just one KISS reverb per channel on the SA220--and gimmicky stuff that doesn't get used like Radio Voice, and no compression (which I'm not using yet).

What'd really set an outboard mixer apart from the built-in SA220 would be a mid-sweep, like that on the Soundcraft EFX8.