Do Wood veneers change the tone?

[Captain Jim]

What this comes down to (for me): there is only one carbon fiber guitar manufacturer making these gorgeous wood veneer guitars: Emerald. Sniping at an innovator doesn't diminish the person or the product... carried on (and on), it comes across as sour grapes.

The guitars not only look great, they match that in sound and comfort. Taylor is often discussed when it comes to consistency in wood guitars... and, yet, there will be some differences in tone from one guitar to another. If there is a subtle (perhaps not distinguishable by us mere mortals) difference due to the Emerald veneer, I am willing to accept the fact my X20 sounds better just because it is so fine looking.

Looking for "a reason" to downplay a very striking option that you can't get anywhere but Emerald seems ripe to backfire.

[rmsstrider]

Well , I wasn't expecting 4 pages when I posted this topic. I appreciate all the responses. I always learn a lot here. For instance that there are many fine and different CF guitars available with different tops and builds and that each has their own unique voice. It's great to have variety and so many choices. Thanks to all the builders for pushing the envelope and thanks to all the dealers that support CF guitars, and thanks to all the learned forum members for their input. I guess I will just have to keep buying different CF guitars and enjoy what each has to offer.

The McGurk Effect may explain a lot of human behavior. The Bauhaus school of thought might also relate by suggesting that our senses are interrelated. We really do, for example, feel music, seeing can elicit pain, and so forth.

But I don't think that Alistair is talking about McGurk or Bauhaus. I think what he is saying is that there is enough variance between different finishes (and perhaps enough variance within even the same finish) that a veneer finish might be difficult to pick out of a crowd. But if you played just two guitars side by side, one with a veneer finish, you would probably be able to identify a veneer from its slightly darker tone. Makes sense to me.

[mot]

Originally Posted by EvanB

if you played just two guitars side by side, one with a veneer finish, you would probably be able to identify a veneer from its slightly darker tone. Makes sense to me.

Yep! This is what I was alluding to in my yet-to-be-performed experiment that I outlined earlier, but you and Alistair said it so much better.

I am between coming up with a good pie recipe and grabbing some popcorn and a coke before sitting back to watch how this show plays out.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

..Looking for "a reason" to downplay a very striking option that you can't get anywhere but Emerald seems ripe to backfire.

I am quite surprised by this post, Jim. No one here has downplayed Emeralds wood option, in fact you and I have had some back channel communication where I said the option, for me anyway, was a plus tonally. The question was, does the wood veneer change the tone, not if it's better or worse.

[sumokids]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

What this comes down to (for me): there is only one carbon fiber guitar manufacturer making these gorgeous wood veneer guitars: Emerald. Sniping at an innovator doesn't diminish the person or the product... carried on (and on), it comes across as sour grapes.

Well said, Captain Jim.

[TheChicagoTodd]

Originally Posted by mot

I believe this is more common than many realize and in this instance is an aspect of or at least related to the McGurk Effect. Crazy things can happen in a brain and this is just another example.

Wild!

Sent from my SM-G928V using Tapatalk

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

I am quite surprised by this post, Jim. No one here has downplayed Emeralds wood option, in fact you and I have had some back channel communication where I said the option, for me anyway, was a plus tonally. The question was, does the wood veneer change the tone, not if it's better or worse.

Ted, I just reread our e-mail discussion, and didn't see any specific exchange about the wood veneer and tone. Frankly (and it is rare that I am this frank), some of your posts here have been negative regarding anything Emerald. Nit-picking this "subtle difference" regarding an X20 with and without veneer on this specific thread has taken on the feeling of a Junior High playground argument.

You and I also discussed business, and how I was able to retire in my early 50s. In my years of owning businesses, I made it a point to not say anything negative about my competition. In fact, I found it best to simply not mention them. Only if a client (or perspective client) would bring up the competition, would I say something like, "They do good work," and move on.

You handle a lot of fine guitar lines. You have plenty of customers (me included) here that respect what you have to offer. Until it becomes the nit-picking or complaining that Emerald is getting "more than their share" of exposure on this sub-forum. My dealings with you have not been based on negativity.

I say this as a friend: let it go.

-----

I'll go with the pie instead of the popcorn, please. Notice the absence of smiley or winky faces in this post.

[Kerbie]

A very thoughtful post, Captain. This is not the first thread in the CF section that has spiraled downward lately. There is too much good to be discussed here for this sort of negativity. Let's see if we can all be big enough to move on to a polite discussion of some very fine guitars. Thank you all for the level-headedness to not allow this one to go completely out of control.

I view all of this as healthy, to a point. This is particularly neat forum in that participants are honest and candid. Once in a while we go too far, but I've noticed that ultimately everyone is pretty darned civilized. I am nominating the Captain for our next presidency.

[Kerbie]

Captain, Mr. President, Mr. Prime Minister, Your Royal Highness, sir! Duty calls here...

I second it...

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Jim, as you well know, thanks to the efforts of a few, close to half of all the threads here are now about Emerald, and those that aren't, quickly get the brand injected. My Savoy thread is a prime example of this. Seems like six of you have completely taken over here, and anyone not down with the program, like Sharon last week, and Jdinco this week will be shown the door.

Yo know, I lobbied for this sub forum, not because CF guitars are a big part of my sales, but because I'm passionate about them. But now, I actually would prefer to see this section mixed in to General.

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by EvanB

I view all of this as healthy, to a point. This is particularly neat forum in that participants are honest and candid. Once in a while we go too far, but I've noticed that ultimately everyone is pretty darned civilized. I am nominating the Captain for our next presidency.

In the words of the late philosopher Pat Paulson: "If nominated, I will not run. If elected, I will not serve."

I will, however, consider being named Emperor of the World, by a nearly unanimous proclamation.

Keep in mind, as a boat captain (now, really retired), no one questions your decisions. Take it up with the owner when we are back on land.

This CF sub-forum is one of my favorite places on the internet. We don't have to all agree, but this place is at its best when we aren't disagreeable. There are some strong personalities here (hey, it takes a forward thinker to appreciate all that a great CF guitar offers), but I think we can all agree that there are some fine CF options out there.

After playing guitar for over 50 years (Jim, you played in the womb?), I get excited when something special comes along guitar-wise. But, not for one minute do I think my guitar can beat up your guitar.

My platform: a chicken in every pot, a car in every garage, two CF guitars in every music room. Well, except for you folks who own a bunch of 'em - you get to keep as many as you want.

[rmsstrider]

"My platform: a chicken in every pot, a car in every garage, two CF guitars in every music room. Well, except for you folks who own a bunch of 'em - you get to keep as many as you want. "

Please pm me for my address to send me my second C.F. guitar. Thanks. Oh, and if not too much trouble the cocobola would be preferred.

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Jim, as you well know, thanks to the efforts of a few, close to half of all the threads here are now about Emerald, and those that aren't, quickly get the brand injected. My Savoy thread is a prime example of this. Seems like six of you have completely taken over here, and anyone not down with the program, like Sharon last week, and Jdinco this week will be shown the door.

Yo know, I lobbied for this sub forum, not because CF guitars are a big part of my sales, but because I'm passionate about them. But now, I actually would prefer to see this section mixed in to General.

Easy there, big fella - nobody was "shown the door." I pointed out to Sharona that the posts are archived here... all the "good stuff" is still there; Jdinco has been participating on threads here. I don't see where anyone chased him away. He and I had a pleasant exchange on that "Sophie's Choice" thread I started... a thread about choosing between two Emeralds to take on the road, and you brought up RainSong and 2 CA Cargos on Post #7. See - it isn't MY thread, and we all do some wandering about... part of it being a discussion.

This sub-forum has been very supportive and welcoming, including when I bought my first CF guitar from you.

"The six of you"... Ted, not sure who the other 5 are, but I get excited by all the CF offerings here, by all the manufacturers. Perhaps others are equally enthusiastic? I have spent more time on this forum today than in a very long time... unfortunately, because things have taken an odd turn. As with most forums, the participants determine what gets discussed, and you seem to be at odds with that premise... as though there needs to be some formula or percentage of what brand of guitars are discussed?? I won't apologize for being excited about the guitars I own.

There is no conspiracy here. As far as I know, it is owners talking about their guitars, and those who are interested in CF asking questions. The first time you commented about "all the threads are about Emerald," I did a count on the threads on the first page: 14 of 35 were about Emerald. I even commented to you: "Where are the owners of other CF brands, and where are their posts?"

Personally, I think it would be a shame to incorporate this sub-forum into the General Forum - these guitars have something very specific in common, and are unique in that. Plus, if all the "wood guys" find out about these cool wood veneers, the whole AGF forum will be wanting one... resulting in even more posts about Emerald!

(Nobody gets to be mad at me because I put a "winky" at the end of the above paragraph.)

Being a retired guy, I can spend as much time as I want now on forums. The really cool thing about that is: I still skip over WAY more threads than I read. Seriously, who has time for all this?? Everyone gets to read the threads that interest them.

You and I have traded e-mails, I have bought guitars from you, and I consider you a guitar-forum friend. The negativity isn't good... not for you, not for this forum, not for your business. I appreciate your passion, but I think it is misdirected. For you, this is business... for most of the rest of us, we are just happy to have found this place with people who have similar interests. Let it go and this thread (like all the others) will move down the list... keep posting about what you think others are doing, and it will stay at the top.

Here's some fun advice: If anyone here isn't interested in a particular thread, a brand, a model, fan frets, soundholes, pickups, etc , don't read it.

Whew!

Have a swell day, everyone,
Jim