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  #31  
Old 07-21-2020, 12:50 PM
Gitfiddlemann Gitfiddlemann is offline
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Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
By the end of this thread this piece will be super difficult! ;-)
I would recommend abandoning this kind of transposing exercise, and head back to first position chords, and the easiest fingering the piece can be played in.
That will allow you to focus your efforts instead on phrasing and tone production. Those are the key things that will make a piece like this sound nice to the listeners.
Just a suggestion. Not trying to teach or preach here.
Good tone, clean execution and tasteful phrasing will buy you a lot of likes.
The fact that this piece is relatively easy to play should be taken advantage of in this regard to work on those key fundamentals.
Probably also what Carulli intended.
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  #32  
Old 07-21-2020, 01:42 PM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Originally Posted by AndreF View Post
By the end of this thread this piece will be super difficult! ;-)
I would recommend abandoning this kind of transposing exercise, and head back to first position chords, and the easiest fingering the piece can be played in.
That will allow you to focus your efforts instead on phrasing and tone production. Those are the key things that will make a piece like this sound nice to the listeners.
Just a suggestion. Not trying to teach or preach here.
Good tone, clean execution and tasteful phrasing will buy you a lot of likes.
The fact that this piece is relatively easy to play should be taken advantage of in this regard to work on those key fundamentals.
Probably also what Carulli intended.
Next I hope to finger the whole thing above the 12th fret!

Just kidding.

Yes, I agree completely. This was an exercise to help learn/recall the fingerboard, and just to look and see what a few of the possibilities are. Some I thought were quite functional, others not so much. I find this sort of thing enjoyable and useful, but perhaps, as you point out, not so practical. Maybe it's like vacuuming, only fun for the person doing it and rather annoying for the rest. But it's part of my process, exploring fingerings, so I thought I'd include it. I don't usually write them out, just look around for what I like, but that is hard to convey in a post.

I did mention in my voluminous post on this that,

Quote:
"I think for a piece like this, you can finger it traditionally, like how Carulli would have. Or you go with fairly traditional but with modern improvements, which is what I plan to do next. Or you can just find places on the guitar where the notes are playable and see what happens. That what I did here."
So yes, next will be an arrangement with fairly traditional fingerings. Not really historically correct, since I don't have the knowledge for that, nor is that how I would typically play it. Just little things like using the a finger more, and changing the left hand fingerings to my liking.

While it may appear so, I haven't strayed from my initial goal of:

Quote:
"It’s a very simple tune, 16 bars long, in the key of G, but I think there is some real music to be found in it. There is also some basic technique that will be required. So I’ll focus on getting a good tone, basic technical requirements, and trying to make it sound musical."
I need to pad out the number of posts, though, as that's how I'm getting paid.

Thanks for looking at the score and giving your opinion, I appreciate it.
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  #33  
Old 07-22-2020, 07:37 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Ok, and here we arrive at what is a pretty easy and reasonable fingering. Looks good! Right some professional.

Is there anything left to say about it? Of course there is.

Bar 2: There’s a rest in the bass, and a ringing open G string.

Bar 3: All three of the IMSLP editions showed the E note in the bass of the first beat of this measure fingered with the 2 (middle) finger. The very same 2 that was, until micro-moments ago holding down the F# on the high E. But really, there’s no need for this physically awkward and non-musical jump. The E bass can be fingered with the 1 (index) finger, which solves 2 problems. I have to ask myself if Carulli wrote it like this, or if the editor(s) added in the fingerings. One the one hand jumps like this are common and Carulli might have been thinking in terms of which fingers go in which frets, but on the other there is no need for jumping a finger between beats if it can easily be avoided. So I wonder...

Bar 4: The end of my favorite phrase in the piece. There’s a rest to follow here at the conclusion of the phrase.

Bars 5-6: Still having a lot of trouble dampening the bass or other open string notes. I can do it slowly, but it messes up the rhythm or the feel. I especially have trouble getting the ringing open B near the end of bar 6 just before the high G.

Bar 7-8: Starting with the lead in notes from the previous bar, I switch around the right hand fingering a bit, which feels a little unnatural to me, but leads favorably into bar 8.

Sometimes for left hand fingerings, it’s important to work them out, other times it’s easier to just alternate i-m for the most part. However, by simply alternating i-m or m-i, situations occur where the i finger will be playing the higher string and m the lower string, sometime repeatedly. For example, if you played i-m on the notes e (2nd string, 5th fret) and f# (1st string, 2nd fret) repeatedly. Normally you would play this starting with m, but if this occurred in the middle of a tune that might not be an option depending on what music came right before this. Working out right hand fingerings can avoid some of these trouble spots.

Bars 9-12: This is all pretty straight forward. Remember in 11-12 to echo back the repeated phrase, and give some sort of contrast to 9-10.

Bar 13: So the final D note in bar 12 is fingered by the 3 finger. So there is a fingering choice here: jump the 3 finger down to the following C bass note; or finger the next bass C with 2, then have it move to B; or change the end of bar 12 to finger the D with 4, then use 3 for the C.

I’ll avoid the jump, as I find it awkward. Between the other 2 choices, I tend to prefer what works without backtracking and rearranging the fingerings. 2 for the C ends up working just fine, so I use that.

Bar 14: I think a little pause/slowing down/ritardando fits in well here.

Bar 15: I find this a mildly perplexing bar to play in terms of speed. Lots of options of where to put the emphasis that all seem to work. I often rush this bar and need to avoid that.

Bar 16: I think the rest should only be followed for the repeat and skipped for the final chord, which can be held.


Next I'll practice it up some more, and then see if I can make a little recording, but I may need to put some new strings on, as my practice guitar is comfortable but not the best sounding, and refresh myself on the recorder and software to process the sound file.

Here it is with tab:


Last edited by mc1; 07-22-2020 at 10:55 AM.
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  #34  
Old 07-22-2020, 08:39 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
Bar 4: The end of my favorite phrase in the piece. There’s a rest to follow here at the conclusion of the phrase.
While it is not my intention to re-write the piece, I think there are a number of simple "improvements" that can be made to the piece. Here are three.

In bars 3 and 4, replace the peddle "G" note with a peddle B note, second open string. Doing so fleshes out the harmony: the repeated G note adds little harmonically.

In bar 7, reverse the order of the bass and melody notes, playing the melody first, then the bass. Doing so makes the melody continuous from bar 6. Playing the bass note first, then the melody at the beginning of bar 7 causes an uneccessary hiccup to my ear, something that is out of character with the rest of the piece - it occurs only once, here. (I'd prefer if the melody and bass were played simultaneously, as is done everywhere else in the piece, and then fill in the off-beat with a chordal note, similar to the rest of the piece.)

At the end of bar 8, replace the bass D with F# below the A. It fleshes out the harmony and avoids the naked perfect fifth as written, something out of character with the rest of the piece.

Last edited by charles Tauber; 07-22-2020 at 08:46 AM.
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  #35  
Old 07-22-2020, 10:58 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
While it is not my intention to re-write the piece, I think there are a number of simple "improvements" that can be made to the piece. Here are three.

In bars 3 and 4, replace the peddle "G" note with a peddle B note, second open string. Doing so fleshes out the harmony: the repeated G note adds little harmonically.

In bar 7, reverse the order of the bass and melody notes, playing the melody first, then the bass. Doing so makes the melody continuous from bar 6. Playing the bass note first, then the melody at the beginning of bar 7 causes an unnecessary hiccup to my ear, something that is out of character with the rest of the piece - it occurs only once, here. (I'd prefer if the melody and bass were played simultaneously, as is done everywhere else in the piece, and then fill in the off-beat with a chordal note, similar to the rest of the piece.)

At the end of bar 8, replace the bass D with F# below the A. It fleshes out the harmony and avoids the naked perfect fifth as written, something out of character with the rest of the piece.
Hi Charles,

That's pretty cool. Thanks for adding in your thoughts and comments. If I understand you correctly the first 8 bars would look something like this:

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  #36  
Old 07-22-2020, 10:03 PM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Yes.

The choice of fingerings are often a personal preference. However, a few suggestions.

1. You seem to repeatedly avoid fretting with the fourth finger when it is the obvious choice and simplifies what comes before and/or after it. In bar 2, for example, you play the bass B note with 2 and the D note with 3. Playing the D note with 4 seems more natural to me, eliminating the stretch requiring less separation between fingers 2 and 3.

2. At the beginning of bar 3, you are calling for an awkward shift from 2 playing the F# on the first string to 2 immediatly playing the E note on the fourth string. That is easily avoided by using 2 to slide/guide to the G note at the start of bar 3 and playing the bass E note with 1. For the F# that follows it, slide 2 back down a fret. Doing so frees 3 to easily play the C bass note at the beginning of the next bar (4).

3. At the end of bar 4, I'd play the B bass note with 2 and the D melody with 4. See 1, above. This eliminates the awkward jump from having 3 play the bass C on the 5th string to immediately playing D on the second string. At speed, it would be very difficult to make that jump smoothly. There is no need to, as it easily avoided.

4. Same thing, again, in your alternate bar 7. I'd use 2 and 4 on the B and D notes, rather than 2 and 3.

5. For the bar 8, I'd slide 2 from C# to D, freeing 1 and 3 to play F# and A, which are then right under those fingers.

Think ergonomics, minimal effort and minimal change of finger and wrist positions.

Here is a simple example. Take the basic G major and C major "cowboy" chords. Most play G major with 2 on the bass G (6th string), 1 on the B (5th string) and 3 on the G ( 1st string). To change to the standard C major chord requires the wrist to change positions, to rotate. 1 has to be lifted from the 5th string, the wrist rotated so that 1 can reach the second string, first fret. The whole hand has to change.

By contrast, try a different fingering for G major, same notes. Play the bass G with 3 (6th string), the B with 2 (5th string) and the G with 4 (1st string). The change to C major, one simply moves the fingers with no need to rotate the entire hand at the wrist. The first finger, for example is already directly above the C note on the seconds string: you simply drop the finger where it already is. Minimal hand movement, minimal finger movement, minimal effort.

Sure, there might be times to play the G major chord in the common way, in which case it make sense to do that.

Last edited by charles Tauber; 07-22-2020 at 10:23 PM.
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  #37  
Old 07-23-2020, 06:58 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
Yes.

The choice of fingerings are often a personal preference. However, a few suggestions.

1. You seem to repeatedly avoid fretting with the fourth finger when it is the obvious choice and simplifies what comes before and/or after it. In bar 2, for example, you play the bass B note with 2 and the D note with 3. Playing the D note with 4 seems more natural to me, eliminating the stretch requiring less separation between fingers 2 and 3.
Hi Charles,

It took me a bit to reconcile your comments with my my fingerings, since for the most part they agree. but I think I know what happened. I think you are looking at the "new, improved" version with the changes you suggested. That version is unfingered, but it does have tab included for anyone who might be following along in this thread that doesn't read music. So the 2 and 3 at the start of bar 2 are the frets where the notes are played, not the fingers doing the fretting.

If you look back to post #33, you will see my fingerings. I use 2 and 4 for the B and D notes, exactly as you recommend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
2. At the beginning of bar 3, you are calling for an awkward shift from 2 playing the F# on the first string to 2 immediately playing the E note on the fourth string. That is easily avoided by using 2 to slide/guide to the G note at the start of bar 3 and playing the bass E note with 1. For the F# that follows it, slide 2 back down a fret. Doing so frees 3 to easily play the C bass note at the beginning of the next bar (4).
Leading into bar 3, I also specifically avoid having 2 jump from F# down to the E in the bass. But rather than use a slide as you mention, I use my 4 finger. This seems very much a personal preference, and both solutions avoid the jump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
3. At the end of bar 4, I'd play the B bass note with 2 and the D melody with 4. See 1, above. This eliminates the awkward jump from having 3 play the bass C on the 5th string to immediately playing D on the second string. At speed, it would be very difficult to make that jump smoothly. There is no need to, as it easily avoided.
Yes, I agree and that is how I fingered it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
4. Same thing, again, in your alternate bar 7. I'd use 2 and 4 on the B and D notes, rather than 2 and 3.

5. For the bar 8, I'd slide 2 from C# to D, freeing 1 and 3 to play F# and A, which are then right under those fingers.
These comments are how I understood you to be looking at the alternate version, which, as I mentioned, isn't fingered.

Well, too bad for the confusion. I appreciate your input.
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  #38  
Old 07-23-2020, 08:10 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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You’re right, my mistake. My apologies.
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  #39  
Old 07-23-2020, 08:36 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
You’re right, my mistake. My apologies.
No need to apologize. I'm sorry for the confusion and wasted energy.

I fear I have made this project overly complicated with too much sheet music and notes. Oh well, at least I'm getting some enjoyment and practical use out of it.
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  #40  
Old 07-23-2020, 10:15 AM
charles Tauber charles Tauber is offline
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Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
I fear I have made this project overly complicated with too much sheet music and notes.
I don't think so. It allows those interested to see your thought process in becoming familiar with a new piece of music. Choosing a simple/short one allows that to happen quicker and in "real time".

In playing the piece, and noting its, uhm, "simplicity", I started thinking of other simple, short pieces that were more "sophisticated" in their musicality. One that came to mind was the Suite in D- by Robert De Visee, a number of short, simple pieces with some interesting musicality.

You can listen to the suite here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msUzPihqYB8
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  #41  
Old 07-23-2020, 11:03 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Originally Posted by charles Tauber View Post
I don't think so. It allows those interested to see your thought process in becoming familiar with a new piece of music. Choosing a simple/short one allows that to happen quicker and in "real time".

In playing the piece, and noting its, uhm, "simplicity", I started thinking of other simple, short pieces that were more "sophisticated" in their musicality. One that came to mind was the Suite in D- by Robert De Visee, a number of short, simple pieces with some interesting musicality.

You can listen to the suite here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msUzPihqYB8
Thanks Charles, you made me feel better.

I've been thinking about easy pieces as well. I'm familiar with the de Visee suite, I think I first heard it on Julian Bream's Baroque Guitar many years ago. And I'm sure I have the original manuscript or music in digital form. I like to accumulate those. The suite is very nice. I have a couple of de Visee CDs where the performer uses all those strums that are more historically correct. Not my favorite style, though.

Tarrega has a nice tiny little piece. The some nice Comte de Logy pieces, and lots of Gaspar Sanz. They're out there.
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  #42  
Old 07-23-2020, 08:15 PM
Gitfiddlemann Gitfiddlemann is offline
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Don’t forget about Fernando Sor. His works classified under Opus 35 are among his most simple yet chock full of beautiful melodies and rich musical textures. Personally I would have selected one of those for this type of exercise.
Of course the selections mentioned above work well too but Sor was a master at just this type of thing.
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  #43  
Old 07-24-2020, 10:42 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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Originally Posted by AndreF View Post
Don’t forget about Fernando Sor. His works classified under Opus 35 are among his most simple yet chock full of beautiful melodies and rich musical textures. Personally I would have selected one of those for this type of exercise.
Of course the selections mentioned above work well too but Sor was a master at just this type of thing.
Yes, lots of nice Sor. I like Aguado and Carcassi as well. I especially like the old renaissance lute tunes, although like the Sanz, they often aren't harmonically rich. But some pretty little tunes.
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  #44  
Old 07-26-2020, 11:36 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
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https://www.dropbox.com/s/cv4o9vjy8t...ntino.mp3?dl=0

Ok, I made a quick recording to share, linked above. I used my Tascam DR-40 in a room that is being painted, so everything is moved out and there's lots of natural reverb. The guitar was a Cordoba C9 Dolce.

The sound isn't perfect, there's some hiss, and other odd sounds, but it's acceptable and gets my playing of the piece across.

(Edit: I just listened back on a different computer to make sure it played without being signed in to dropbox, and was surprised by the difference in sound. Lots more hiss and high end. Oh well, I'm pressed for time and so will leave it as is.)

(Edit edit: I had time to make another quick recording in a different room and the sound quality is much improved. A couple of little glitches. So above is the newer version.)

I tried to play it with a bit of feeling and some musical tempo rubato. My fingers don't always want to do what my brain wishes. So easy to have little issues like playing a note too loudly, too quietly, not striking it cleanly, not getting the right angle with my nail, nail sounds, moving your picking arm sounds, string squeaks, etc, etc. I guess that's what practice is for.

I remember hearing a director talk about one of his movies once, and he was lamenting that people always think that movies turn out exactly as the director envisioned, but in reality, they never really do and often what the director is trying to get across doesn't work. But due to restraints in time, energy, and money, you can't rework it forever.

For me guitar playing is a lot like that, as my fingers just don't have the control or confidence to let me play it as I hear it. Perhaps I expect too much. I haven't really played much in the last few years, and couldn't devote as much time to practicing this as I probably should. But that's why I picked such an easy piece.

I recall da Vinci said something like, "Art is never finished only abandoned", which is a great quote. He certainly got pretty close to finishing though.

But it's time to abandon this project, excepting any questions anyone might have.

Thanks to everyone who commented or followed along, I hope it was of some benefit. It was certainly beneficial to me, and perhaps I'll do another one.

Any comments of the piece, my playing, the recording or this whole thread will be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by mc1; 07-26-2020 at 02:55 PM.
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  #45  
Old 07-26-2020, 01:31 PM
MThomson MThomson is offline
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I really enjoyed this thread. A piece like this I would not have thought deeply about, picking fingerings that work quickly and trying to make it sound musical. It would be something of a sight reading exercise. And yet there was plenty to look at and understand in the harmony and construction and I really feel I understand it better as a result. So I've made a note to self to play a little bit more attention to the details when picking up a piece and not to take the first fingering I think of as the best for granted. Thanks for doing it.
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