Favorite Flamenco Artist?

[darylcrisp]

my most favorite Flamenco artist is and has always been Chico Moraito, from the first time i saw the man perform.

though highly capable of blinding fast play, Moraito seems to have a depth of soul in his music and allows each song time to have those most perfect moments of silence and pause.

RIP my friend,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcAJ73pu2_M


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWFoc...eature=related
d

[BuleriaChk]

Moraito was an exceptional Flamenco (although, since he was from Jerez... I dunno.. ANYBODY from Jerez is an exceptional Flamenco.....

[Red_Label]

Originally Posted by BuleriaChk

IMNSHO - (digging into the can of worms)..... and my first possible Flamenco flame war on this form........

Juan Serrano can play flamenco well, but his roots do not seem "Gitano" to me; he seems "American/classical" (judging from a Flamenco perspective of the 1970's, admittedly), as opposed, say, to Juan Maya "Marote" (e.g., when he accompanies La Fernanda and La Bernarda de Utrera). In terms of compas, I find Juan Serrano boring, with little hint of the complex twists and turns of compas so important to Gitanos I knew in Spain. (Mario Escudero is more Flamenco than Juan Serrano in this respect). For a "classical" sounding Paco de Lucia, compare his Bulerias on "Fantasia Flamenca" with that on "El Duende de Paco de Lucia" (strongly influenced, I suspect, by Paco del Gastor, who was playing second guitar to him accompanying Bambino around that period as I remember - I think before he met Camaron de la Isla.) ("Fantasia" seems influenced by Mario Escudero - I believe PdL "studied" with him for some time)..


("Those who think they know it all are really irritating to those of us who actually do..."

You are entitled to your opinion, and indeed... regarding flamenco it's no doubt more educated than most of us on this forum. I do find it mildly amusing that you make the quote, "Those who think they know it all are really irritating to those of us who actually do" in your post. In my own case, I don't think I know it all in any genre. You strike me as feeling that you do know it all in the specific genre of flamenco.

I'll let the records (as in LITERAL records, of which you have produced none) of the artists you've critiqued speak for themselves. You may find certain aspects of Serrano's playing/compositions "boring", but Serrano IS a well-known flamenco artist and had I not stumbled into this forum, I'd still be completely unaware of your existence.

I perceive a haughtiness or conceit in some of your posts that reminds me of the hardline talk of people in rarified air like Segovia. Which would be more tolerable if your body of work and accomlishment was like his, or Sabicas, or even one "boring" Juan Serrano.

Though you certainly seem to impress some on this forum enough that they aren't bothered by your seeming dismissal of some well-known flamenco artists, that is obviously not the case with me. These well-known players are far beyond me in terms of ability, experience and knowledge (especially considering that I don't claim to play REAL flamenco or even be a student of the art -- just an admirer). I don't know it all, but I know enough to know that just like me, you can't hang with the names you so easily dismiss and were they to be asked their opinion of your work, they'd respond with a confused look and a "Chuck who?" (also, just like me).

I won't waste my time (and yours) with further sabre-rattling regarding this issue. I don't care enough to bother with a "flame war". I just wanted to state that despite your studied background and superior knowledge of the subject of flamenco puro in this particular forum... I'll still be deferring to the superior accomplishments and catalogs of the well-known names listed over those of the "resident expert" here.


BTW... this thread is titled "Favorite flamenco artist". Not "best", not "purest", and not "favorite, Chuck-approved flamenco puro".

[BuleriaChk]

FWIW, I didn't mean the "know everything" comment to be directed at anyone personally; I just thought it was a funny one-liner in general. If anyone (e.g. RL) took it personally, that's not how it was meant, and I apologize on a personal level. But I still think it's funny....

And everyone is entitled to their opinion. Red Label gives his, I give mine, we discuss them from our own perspectives and knowledge bases, and life goes on - more or less ...

When we went over to Spain in the late '60's, most of us (American aficionados) had been exposed to very few flamenco guitarists. Juan Serrano was lucky enough to be promoted strongly in the US, along with Carlos Montoya, Sabicas, etc. All of these guitarists had some technical facility and knowledge of Flamenco, but very few of them had the flavor of Gitanos from Moron de la Frontera or Jerez.

It blew us away, because it was so different. Compare Moraito's Bulerias (there's also a great one of Tomatito's on Youtube somewhere; I'll try to find it.) Even Sabicas, although brilliant, doesn't have that swing - and it seemed that every street kid in Spain had it.

Sheesh, and we had studied so hard, and had to readjust our parameters frantically... And there were and are so many great guitarists in Spain that people are only just now being exposed to through YouTube - we had to scrape all our Flamenco off of LP's (and for a long time, we didn't even have tape recorders....)

Anyway, you can't go wrong with those cuts of Moraito that Daryl posted. I think anyone conversant with Flamenco would attest to their quality...

Hey, if you want to experience a real Flamenco war, check out the battle between Estela and myself on the Yahoo "Flamenco Dancer" group about the use of the term "Jaleo" in explaining one of the forms of Bulerias. (the list got real quiet after THAT one...

[darylcrisp]

look at the future

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTJv7...eature=related


d

[BuleriaChk]

Very cute. And that is for sure a Flamenco guitar, not a classical.....

Originally Posted by darylcrisp

look at the future
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTJv7...eature=related

[fmmusicman]

Ouuch!
Flamenco Snobs.

[BuleriaChk]

Well, there's good Flamenco and bad Flamenco, and then there's what everyone else does..

Originally Posted by fmmusicman

Ouuch!
Flamenco Snobs.

[FrankHS]

Originally Posted by fmmusicman

Ouuch!
Flamenco Snobs.

But snobs play a role in the world--sometimes they preserve something good that no one else would or could. I was once a member of a religious sect (which I now denounce) that was so impractically narrow, and had its own definitions about everything, even what "Christian" really meant--no one else was a real Christian except them. Example of impractical--to have this mindset while trying to take a college course in religious studies, you will be forced to communicate in the world's terms and definitions, not your own, not your sect's.

Concentric circles of increasing narrowness (and yes, sophistication) probably exist everywhere: music, athletics, wine tasting, medicine, chandelier collecting. My quibble is usually the social skills of those who strive to join the elite (elite not meaning "top" or the best, but the most exclusionary.) I want to pay attention to what they (educated elite) say in cases where they have apparently isolated certain qualities that others will not or cannot.

However, I will wager Chuck's old ASPRI reverb that Gostwriter asked for others' Flamenco favorites in order to expand upon his or her listening possibilities--expansion of the kinds of sounds that are already attracting OP, and not to contract them to only Gitano tradition, whatever Gitano means. At some point, us plebes can rightly claim that the proof of the puddin' should be in the consumption, not in only the received history, or similar abstractions.

[BuleriaChk]

I will surely admit to having no social skills whatever.... That said:

Gitano = Spanish Gypsy, as contrasted with Irish Gypsy (Travelers) or Rom Gypsy (Romani - European). Gitanos have their own dialect, Calo, which contains many Indo-Pakistani words (from where they originally came), but Calo based on Spanish Grammar. Romani Gypsies and Calo Gypsies can communicate, but barely (of course, many of them can get around 4 or 5 languages, so that they eventually get understood - and they are REAL good at watching eyes and interpreting faces and gestures).

Flamenco is an art of the Cale (Gitanos); I think its origins and structures have more to do with European Court Dances than Moorish music, but you can get real arguments on that (except possibly the chords, although Jerry in another forum observed that it probably started on a street corner with someone sliding an "E" chord form up and down one fret and tapping his foot). (That said, there was a program from the Canadian Tap Dance Company to Bach's Goldberg variations that really suggested Flamenco compas.... IMO, Greek music sounds closer to Flamenco in many ways than Moorish music.....

For example, the Gypsy Kings (including Manitas de Plata) hail from a family in southern France. Calo Gypsies are from Southern Spain (Jerez, Cadiz, Moron, Lebrija, Seville, Cordoba, Utrera, Alcala, etc... and the association gets more remote as you go north.. (although there are a lot of artist in Madrid, and Carmen Amaya et familia were from Barcelona)

Finally, Calo Gypsies are more or less settled in Spain; they don't travel in family bands, although often they had to work abroad (Gonzalo was a welder, and had to leave Moron to work in Germany for three years at a stretch, sending back money to La Chica and their 5 kids.... I'll never forget them..

(Gonzalo used to get dressed up on Sundays with a tie, his camel's hair overcoat, dark glasses and fedora, and one time we were in the church square and a family caravan came through. I flipped out his tie and said "What's this?", and he answered that he was no Gitano, THEY were the true Gitano. This from one that everyone in Moron recognizes as "Mas Gitano que to').... This would have been some time in 1969 on my first trip over...

That said, I am no Flamencologist, so there may be mistakes in the above (or wherever).....

Donn Pohren has written two "Bibles" of Flamenco:
"The Art of Flamenco", and "Lives and Legends of Flamenco"... in the 60's, they were like gold to us....

Originally Posted by FrankHS

Gitano tradition, whatever Gitano means. .

[bohemian]

My all time favorite Flemanco guitarist:

Parrilla de Jerez/Manuel Fernandez Molina
RIP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=POp4Kb9akC4