Brazilian Rosewood

[FoxHound4690]

Just wondering what exactly is the deal with this type of wood and why is it so heavily policed?

It seems to be the holy grail of tone woods. You can't get a guitar that's made with it anymore or its very hard to... was it just over foresting that caused such heavy regulations to come into place?

[Tannin]

Over-harvesting, yes. There is practically none of it left in the wild, and harvesting is strictly illegal.

But it's not the holy grail of tonewoods, it's just a timber which was cheap and readily available in the vintage era, so lots of guitars were made from it. As a result, it now has an overblown status and people pay ridiculous sums for it. It is mainly a status symbol these days, with the price bearing no relationship to the musical quality. You see exactly the same sort of economics operating with other endangered items, for example rhino horn and egret plumes.

[J Patrick]

It’s a wood that has been prized by luthiers for its beautiful appearance AND tonal properties….it IS considered by many top luthiers and guitarists to be the holy grail of tonewoods….since tone and appearance are subjective some folks…players and luthiers alike… do not find it to be particularly superior….

…..for the vast majority it’s relative rarity and high cost places it out of reach….still…peruse the AGF classifieds and you’ll see a few Brazilian Rosewood guitars for sale on every page…most of them modern builds…

[Robin, Wales]

Cheap and readily available during the "golden years" - yes. And much of its appeal comes from scarcity now and its widespread use during that early period. And Tony Rice's D-28 I guess adds to its "holly grail" status. It looks pretty and it holds frets well and is easier to work than ebony. But the best tonewood? Well that's a step too far. It is harder than Indian Rosewood, so there will be a tonal difference. But that may well be a tone that you are not looking for!!!

You could say that central/south american mahogany proved a better all-rounder than rosewood. It was even more available and cheaper. You could make a whole guitar from the lumber (except the fretboard), so the "student" models of the time were banged out of the Martin factory as all mahogany - cheap builds that sounded OK as guitars for the market for which they were intended.

Rosewood and spruce were saved for the posher models as they were more expensive woods to buy and a little more difficult for production line work.

If I had the money for a custom build, then I can't say that I'd be seeking out Brazilian Rosewood for the back and sides, as I've really not liked the rosewood guitars that I have played - the tone is just too "fussy" for me.

But folks will chase it simply for its history.

[s2y]

I have 2 acoustics with Brazilian b/s and a fretless with a Brazilian fingerboard. Easily the best instruments I've ever played, heard, and owned. If I had more money and space, I'd love to replicate those builds with EIR, Amazon RW, cocobolo, etc to compare. Alas, I don't and I'll never know.

Unless I get a smoking deal, I don't see myself ordering another. I hope to pass these down to my children some day.

LOL, I'm just glad I'm not a mahogany and The Tree kind of guy.

[Matts67]

Originally Posted by Tannin

Over-harvesting, yes. There is practically none of it left in the wild, and harvesting is strictly illegal.

But it's not the holy grail of tonewoods, it's just a timber which was cheap and readily available in the vintage era, so lots of guitars were made from it. As a result, it now has an overblown status and people pay ridiculous sums for it. It is mainly a status symbol these days, with the price bearing no relationship to the musical quality. You see exactly the same sort of economics operating with other endangered items, for example rhino horn and egret plumes.

This is pretty strongly opinionated information, and a vast majority of the top builders/luthiers will say otherwise.

[redir]

Originally Posted by Matts67

This is pretty strongly opinionated information, and a vast majority of the top builders/luthiers will say otherwise.

There are some top luthiers who will tell you that they made guitars out of locally sourced domestic white oak that sounded just as good or better then any BRW guitar they built too.

[rearis]

There's one available in my city, but the color is so ugly, the color doesn't cover the whole body, really weird, and is so crappy, the position markers is inconsistent, one is small, other is big etc LMAO looks like it was made by someone learning to build guitars.

[charles Tauber]

In discussion with a friend, whom I'm teaching to make a classical guitar, we were going through some old catalogues. Here are a few items from The Luthier's Mercantile's "Winter '80-'81" price list:

Brazilian Rosewood, 2-piece back, classic slab sawn, $35. (Call or write for prices for other sizes, quarter sawn, etc.)
Indian rosewood, 2-piece classic, $31
Padauk, 2-piece back, classic, $35
Mahogany, 2-piece, classic $9
Koa, 2-piece, high flame, $30

Their "Spring '85" price list includes the following:

Brazilian rosewood, 2-piece, classic, $70 - $130
Brazilian rosewood, 2-piece, jumbo, $80 - $140
Indian rosewood, 2-piece, classic, $55
Indian rosewood, 2-piece, jumbo, $55
Padauk, 2-piece back, jumbo, $42
Bubinga, 2-piece, jumbo, $25 [Bubinga, like Brazilian rosewood, is now also included in CITIES and is trade-restricted]
Koa 2-piece, high flame, $55
Mahogany, 2-piece, jumbo, $15

[Robin, Wales]

Charles, you have built classical guitars with Brazilian Rosewood and also Brazilian Ebony. What do those much harder woods than their eastern or African counterparts bring to a classical guitar build?

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Charles, you have built classical guitars with Brazilian Rosewood and also Brazilian Ebony. What do those much harder woods than their eastern or African counterparts bring to a classical guitar build?

Long-established luthier and teacher Sergei de Jonge likes to answer the question of "What is your favourite wood for guitar making/what is the best wood for guitar making", with the answer, "The kind that grows on trees".

He states very clearly that he doesn't subscribe to the belief that "this wood sounds like this and that wood sounds like that". He used to, he says, but experience has taught him otherwise.

I don't subscribe to the "this wood sounds like this..." belief either. Many players do, many luthiers do not.

Last I attended one of his talks, I played a classical guitar he made out of spruce. It had spruce top, back, sides and neck. It was a very respectable sounding guitar, in my opinion, as good as many made of more "traditional" materials (e.g. rosewood). I suspect that someone listening to it would not be able to identify what woods - or even hardwood vs softwood - used.

Then there are recent guitars made of paper and card stock backs and sides...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_elx2OvWN58

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Long-established luthier and teacher Sergei de Jonge likes to answer the question of "What is your favourite wood for guitar making/what is the best wood for guitar making", with the answer, "The kind that grows on trees".

He states very clearly that he doesn't subscribe to the belief that "this wood sounds like this and that wood sounds like that". He used to, he says, but experience has taught him otherwise.

I don't subscribe to the "this wood sounds like this..." belief either. Many players do, many luthiers do not.

Last I attended one of his talks, I played a classical guitar he made out of spruce. It had spruce top, back, sides and neck. It was a very respectable sounding guitar, in my opinion, as good as many made of more "traditional" materials (e.g. rosewood). I suspect that someone listening to it would not be able to identify what woods - or even hardwood vs softwood - used.

Thank you! That is a very enlightening perspective!

[Simon Fay]

If you polled the entire professional luthier population, I think you would find that almost all highly value Brazilian RW for it's beauty and tonal properties. However, most of what is currently available is not instrument grade quality and most luthiers would rather use a high quality Indian rosewood set than a low quality Brazilian rosewood set.

I think you would also find that the majority of luthiers don't believe that there is a single "best" tonewood. Mahogany is also a phenomenal tonewood -- so is Ziricote, Malaysian Blackwood, Tiger Myrtle, Cocobolo, Amazon/Honduran/Madagascar RW, etc ...

[rearis]

Originally Posted by Simon Fay

If you polled the entire professional luthier population, I think you would find that almost all highly value Brazilian RW for it's beauty and tonal properties. However, most of what is currently available is not instrument grade quality and most luthiers would rather use a high quality Indian rosewood set than a low quality Brazilian rosewood set.

I think you would also find that the majority of luthiers don't believe that there is a single "best" tonewood. Mahogany is also a phenomenal tonewood -- so is Ziricote, Malaysian Blackwood, Tiger Myrtle, Cocobolo, Amazon/Honduran/Madagascar RW, etc ...

That's why music is so awesome, the differences. The different instruments, the different woods, different strings, different environment that you play, all matters and can be combined into many different ways to make unique songs, soundtracks.... unique music. So there's no such thing as better this or that. Me, for example, I like eletric guitar too, its amazing for what it can do, I just prefer acoustic, or better: I like to spend my time learning acoustic, but If I knew to play eletric I would play too every now and then. But every instrument is unique, I love the harp sound, piano sound, flute, chinese music instruments, its all amazing. I wish I could play them all, but I chose guitar because its the most "versatile"(?), the sound of course, and its way cheaper than a harp for example.

[Alan Carruth]

BRW has some properties that make it a desirable wood for guitars. In particular, it has very low damping; producing a long ring and a musical tone when tapped. It's also a beautiful wood that smells great, and the non-stump BRW that I've worked with has been almost ridiculously easy to bend.

There are other woods that share many of these same properties. Some, such as pernambuco, are also endangered. Others, like Osage orange, are not attractive in the same way, and can be hard to work with in other respects, but share many of the mechanical and acoustic properties and make good guitars.

My first 'pair' experiment was on classical guitars, one in BRW and the other in white oak. The parts were matched as closely as possible, and I did some acoustic tests (without a computer!), as well as listening and playing tests when they were done. They were a bit different, and, at the time, I attributed those differences to the different properties of the woods, particularly the higher damping and density of the curly oak back. With ~25 years of experience since, I'm thinking that they may have been no more different than any 'matched' pair made with the same material. At any rate, although the BRW guitar was 'better' it was not all that much better, and one has to wonder if the difference in the cost was really worth it.