Whatever happened to Goodall and Santa Cruz?

[Malcolm Kindnes]

Originally Posted by John5

You used to be cool... I remember back in the day buying and selling them like they were Collings guitars (which were just marginally a bit more expensive than Martin guitars)... Got one that may or may not be a keeper? It's alright, I'll just buy another one at some point after I try this different combination! Koa back and sides? Yeah, that's a reasonable price for an upgrade, only a couple of hundred (not thousand) more than Mahogany! Mind you, even Collings guitars prices these days... Sheesh! Californian taxes, am I right?

I have very little experience of Santa Cruz, but Goodalls are very special and truly hand built by two men. No comparison to Collings which is a factory set up.
It's rather like comparing Lowden to McIlroy, there are similarities for sure, but visiting Dermots workshop is a very different experience to visiting the Lowden factory.

[247hoopsfan]

Nothing has happened to my Goodall, still beautiful and putting out amazing tones since 1990.

[url=https://flic.kr/p/GaANV8]

[url=https://flic.kr/p/25PUYS6]

[Keith G50]

They aren’t just producing guitars, they’re producing luxury items, and you charge what the market will bear for those. They aren’t working man’s tools.

[otis66]

I believe the cost of tone woods is the reason why guitar prices are so high now.

[brencat]

Originally Posted by otis66

I believe the cost of tone woods is the reason why guitar prices are so high now.

No way. It’s true they have access to better than average wood, but Keith above you got it exactly right. These are boutique builders with stellar reputations making custom guitars for discerning musicians, hobbyists, and collectors. You charge what the market will bear.

[J Patrick]

Originally Posted by Keith G50

They aren’t just producing guitars, they’re producing luxury items, and you charge what the market will bear for those. They aren’t working man’s tools.

......horse feathers!!....they may or may not be “working mans tools” depending on who is playing them....many men and women who are working musicians play nice guitars.....

...as a career working man....a carpenter by trade...I always invested in the best tools I could afford....they served me well and there is no way I could have maintained the level of quality I did with lesser tools....

......I have always done the same with instruments and even though I have only played professionally part time for most of my life I know that playing high quality guitars has been instrumental in my success.....

....not that any of that mattters....play what you like....like what you play...

[Br1ck]

A lot of the affordability concerns of high priced guitars is driven by those that can't or won't afford them. Those that can are not so very concerned by price, but they do want something out of reach to most people. Makes them extra special people, don't you know.

Much the same for presentation grade pistols. Objects of desire. People are willing to pay a huge premium for the wow factor. When people won't, they will cease to exist. Don't get me wrong, the guitars have to be good guitars, but good guitars are everywhere. Get some known artist playing one, charge more.

I don't care for a lot of guitars. Major players. I could run Collings into the ground in no time by having them build guitars I like. I once told a large Taylor dealer I'd never played a Taylor I liked. He opened up the glass case and handed me two guitars. Ok, I've now played no Taylor under $6K that I liked.

It all comes down the the marketplace. One guy buys a guitar that sends him over the moon playing it, the next guy buys the same guitar because it sends him over the moon when he shows it to his friends. Anyone building guitars knows very well the power of cosmetics.

So to answer the question, both builders have established reputations, and both are taking advantage of that. That is successful business.

[LakewoodM32Fan]

Originally Posted by Br1ck

I once told a large Taylor dealer I'd never played a Taylor I liked. He opened up the glass case and handed me two guitars. Ok, I've now played no Taylor under $6K that I liked.

I probably laughed harder than I should have at that line. Having owned a 714ce (which never opened up) and a 914ce v-c (which I thought was great until I had an opportunity to play SCGC, Collings, Bourgeois, H&D, etc.) I can relate a little to that. I do wonder what the "presentation" series Taylors sound like, to justify their nearly $10K price point.

[247hoopsfan]

Originally Posted by LakewoodM32Fan

I probably laughed harder than I should have at that line. Having owned a 714ce (which never opened up) and a 914ce v-c (which I thought was great until I had an opportunity to play SCGC, Collings, Bourgeois, H&D, etc.) I can relate a little to that. I do wonder what the "presentation" series Taylors sound like, to justify their nearly $10K price point.

The presentation series do not sound any different just more bling. And bling makes no sound.
Larrivee makes incredible 03 series guitars. As you go up the food chain, what you get is more bling and a gloss finish.
The wood grade is higher visually , but pretty figured wood doesn't sound any better than regular boring wood. However, people are willing to pay
more for it, and I don't blame guitar manufacturers for charging what the market will bear. Of course the exception to this is special tone woods like walnut, Madagascar, Brazilian, etc.

[BrunoBlack]

Taken directly from Northern lights website today. Seems reasonable to me. Here are the base models.

[SiliconValleySJ]

I'm loving this thread.

I'd agree that the Goodalls are not getting rich on the guitars. James/Jean and Luke's family survive on the output of their 8 guitars/month, and while real estate in Fort Bragg is much cheaper than say Santa Cruz, they're not rolling in dough. Their buildings, expenses, they send all guitars out to a finisher so that's a cost, etc. Thankfully they've built out most of their tooling since Kona.

I do like Goodalls, some of them are magical. James gets a nice chime out of Euro spruce that I like, and his work with koa and buginga is outstanding.

(247hoops, I remember seeing your standard on CL and I missed it buying it by a day or two, LOL)

As for SCGC, since it seems like there are some downers on it, but I am a huge fan of their OMs. Maybe less so their other models, but the SCGC OM is consistent and has consistently great tone. Outside of their dwindling stock of brazilian rosewood, tunnel 13 tops, and other exotic woods, their prices (as pointed out) are still quite reasonable.

When I think of price inflation, I think of Ervin Somogyi and his apprentices in Oakland, CA. Very high cost of living, but also high demand with low supply--and you have Ervin's guitars that cost the price of a new car, Leo Buendia's base price doubling in the last decade, etc. Unless we have a major extended recession based on Covid19, quality guitar prices aren't dropping much.

And end of the day, there are some guitars regardless of shop/brands that are great. My top 12 ever played are all over the map--2 mid 90s Taylors (one under $2,000 back in those days), an Olson SJ, my Heinonen Olson style SJ, a couple of Maingards, my Langejans, a Corcoran 00, Wingert E, etc.--some guitars just have "it" and in spades, even though manufactured really differently. Probably about 50-75 guitars that I've played in the last 20 years that I thought truly delightful and they all come from really different builders.

[hifivic]

Originally Posted by jgottsman11

I think the new prices of $25000-$30000 for a Santa Cruz Brazilian OM are outrageous. Buy a used Bourgeois with Brazilian for around $7000-9000 and get a grail of a guitar with much better looking wood than a Santa Cruz that still will out-perform almost anything you put it against. That's my own opinion.

Lol, I see you own 2 Bourgeois. You do realize that a NEW Bourgeois Brazillian is pretty much the same price as a NEW Santa Cruz. So what's your point? ........certainly a used guitar is less money! As for "much better looking wood", Brazillian varies quite a bit from guitar to guitar even with the same manufacturer. To my eyes I like about half of the Brazillian I see as I find the other half too dark.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by John5

You used to be cool... I remember back in the day buying and selling them like they were Collings guitars (which were just marginally a bit more expensive than Martin guitars)... Got one that may or may not be a keeper? It's alright, I'll just buy another one at some point after I try this different combination! Koa back and sides? Yeah, that's a reasonable price for an upgrade, only a couple of hundred (not thousand) more than Mahogany! Mind you, even Collings guitars prices these days... Sheesh! Californian taxes, am I right?

I'm not at all sure what you are saying here, but maybe this is a thread that was started in 2025 and has gone back in some sort of timeloop.

I can only look at the future fate of the "boutique" guitar market from a British point of view.
I live in a reasonably affluent part of the UK and up until the 2007/8 economic crash. I could travel 20-50 miles in various directions and visit maybe six well equipped specialist guitar dealers and even more in Central London - the Tin Pan Alley area.

So many good dealers went down at that time, and few have grown up to replace them.

Yes, I like American made guitars despite many perfectly good British makers - and I question my decisions now, but as a guitar player, I grew up in the '60s/'70s where the pictures on the 12" albums I bought showed me Martins, Guilds and Gibsons and little else.

Most of the Boutique builders stood on the (square) shoulders of Martin and Gibson, building versions of their older or better designs when both the big names were still churning out quantity but not necessarily quality.

They also built the older designs that the big two carelessly dropped focussing on the dreads and jumbos and little else.

Collings, Santa Cruz, Bourgeois were the most significant names for me, I could go to TAMCO (sponsor) and see Froggy Bottoms, Goodalls, and othes a little more original in designs than I wanted.

2008, was a BIG hit (for me financially) and for the many small businesses that made/sold fine products for disposable income/investment rather than working road musicans.

Now we have the Covid-19 thing which will kill live entertainment for a decade or more. We have to face up to the fact that the world will change, and of course, there will be an enormous economic hit for many of us.

Disposable cash will diminish, and the affluent baby boomers are dying at an even faster rate than naturally anticipated due to this disease.

There will be a rash of valuable instruments on the market with no buyers, so the values will crash, and the small instrument makers cannot hope to continue to build the quantity or at current prices.

No guitar builders can actually build at present due to lockdown.

Many retailers will not re-open (like in 2008 - but far worse).
call me a catastrophist, but I fear that the title of this thread will be a valid title in the coming moths/years.

[Boozehound]

I'm fortunate enough to own guitars from Goodall, Santa Cruz, and Froggy Bottom. All were purchased used, which represents a great value relative to new. All three have impeccable build quality and attention to detail, and all have been pushing pricing up over the years, particularly SCGC. Out of the three manufacturers I would put my money against Froggy Bottom, with SCGC as the number two. That doesn't mean that Goodall doesn't make great guitars - just that their voicing doesn't appeal as much to my ear as the other two. Your mileage may vary. If really get objective I can't find a massive quality difference though, and a Froggy Model S costs $8500 new vs $4800 for a D/PW, which makes SCGC seem like more of a value - although that's certainly a relative term at this price point!

Goodall: My Goodall (Rosewood Concert Jumbo with POC top) is easily the brightest of the three with a very 'Tayloresque' voicing - although much better. I primarily use for Fingerstyle and find it sounds a bit 'thin and bright' strummed, but that's just my opinion. For reference I find almost every Taylor to sound this way as well. From a quality standpoint the fit/finish/materials look and feel very similar to the Froggy. Abalone rosette, premium Koa binding, etc. It really is a work of art.

Santa Cruz: My OM/PW is, simply put, the best OM I have played. It is very warm/dark for an OM while also being very dry. Fit and finish is more 'bare bones' than the Goodall, however the price is also about $1500 lower (new) so that's to be expected. I would expect a similarly price SCGC OM to be appointed like the Goodall. Plays like butter, and the frets are incredible (20 years old and still doesn't need a re-fret). If I wanted to nit-pick, the fret ends feel a bit sharp (no, the guitar is not dry). Bonus points for being the only Dovetail neck joint (adds construction complexity).

Froggy Bottom: Nice mix of the dry / vintage tone with a touch of modern sparkle and clarity. Impeccable build quality. My Model S has become my 'go to' guitar for (what I do) due to it's versatility - it excels strummed or fingerpicked and can go from folk to country to rock music seamlessly. I'm not sure I can say that the build quality is worth $2500 (new) more than a comparable Goodall, but at these price points you are paying for small degrees of quality.

[tadol]

This thread raises so many issues, and complexities - I have no idea whats happening with the Goodalls, but I would imagine a 2 person shop could operate quite safely through all this - Santa Cruz has about 20 people, and they’ve been completely shut down for some time, but are just starting to reopen, putting work schedules in place to minimize the number of employees in the shop at any point, and putting new protocols in place. They have a very carefully regulated air conditioning system to maintain consistent humidity levels through the construction process, and I’m wondering if they can add UV to it - I’m wondering if I can add it to my air cleaners in my shop, too -

Really good instruments have always been expensive - and people have always loved bling - when the list price of a Martin D28 was about $120, a D-45 listed at about $220 - app 80% price increase. Inflation alone, without considering the cost or availability of the materials used, makes those prices closer to $3,000 and $6,000 - and add in the upswing in wages and the economy, increased demand, larger population, more guitar players, a new D-45 might be priced at $10,000 or more - IF they could get the same brazilian rw to build them -

The build quality, and tonal quality, of many of the instruments coming out of the solo luthiers and small shops, is IMHO, vastly better than much of what came out of the shops in the old days. We see many really good ones from long ago through the simple natural selection process, and many of those have undergone substantial repair (and improvement) work. Do they need to be building to such high quality standards? Different discussion, and again, IMHO, when people look deep into the bowels of their guitar and freak out because they see a drop of glue squeeze out, all I can think is they really need to schedule some therapy -

I still like to think, regardless of price, that these are tools for people to make music with. Some people build with a dollar bin hammer hanging from a cord loop on their belt - others use $75+ “boutique” hammers with heavy leather tool aprons - each has their own priorities, and each has a different standard of what works or doesn’t. Each of us makes that choice within our capabilities and reason. I’m glad I have (a) the resources to consider the purchase of fine instruments, and (b) the appreciation of them to make other sacrifices to be able to do it. Thats just me -