Set-up question - notes are sharp when fretted - Page 2

rick-slo · #16 10-12-2021, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braintree56

So I just took a closer look. The nut is definitely too low. The strings touch the 1st fret when held in between the 2nd and 3rd fret.

My action measures just over 6/64s on the low E at the 12th fret and about 4/64s on the high E.

I'm going to try shimming the nut as a start, but I might be interested in buying a blank and shaping. If for no other reason than learning how to.

Please give me any more advice/suggestions/thoughts you have!

Of course it will fret even sharper after doing that.

Alan Carruth · #17 10-12-2021, 04:19 PM

Nut compensation is not all that difficult, but it does often require some modification; particularly in cutting off the fingerboard end a bit and fitting a wider nut that will allow for it. There have been several articles in the luthier press about this, and Trevor Gore goes into it at some length in his books, both theory and practice. It's generally impossible to get 'perfect' intonation on a guitar, but proper bridge and nut compensation can get you as close as possible. Then all all you have to deal with is the imperfections of 12-Tone Equal Temperament.

Braintree56 · #18 10-13-2021, 06:47 AM

So I think what happened was a repair guy royally messed up my guitar. I think the grooves on the nut are too low and the guy set the relief too much so that the strings wouldn't buzz. That's my theory - does that make sense?

I followed MC5C's guide and also watched some StewMac videos.

In order to shim the nut to a point where the string would not touch the first fret, I had to add two business card cutouts under the nut.

I also have set the neck relief so that I can slide a piece of paper under the strings when fretting the 1st and 14th fret. I also compared this to my nice guitar and it seemed to match.

Now - there is buzzing on the higher strings when played open. And the problem of the fretted notes being sharp is still persisting.

This guitar might be beyond repair or have more serious issues, but it's basically unplayable now so I don't mind getting in there and trying other things.

Any suggestions on where to go from here?

runamuck · #19 10-13-2021, 10:17 AM

Are all notes on all frets sharp when fretted? If so, it's the saddle.

Braintree56 · #20 10-13-2021, 10:26 AM

Yes. It appears they are... To different degrees, but yes!

When you say "It's the saddle" what should I be looking for? I'm wondering if it would make sense to just put in a new nut and saddle.

Alan Carruth · #21 10-13-2021, 11:06 AM

Saddle compensation doesn't have much effect on notes on the lower frets; it gets more effective as you go up the neck. If notes on the first few frets are sharp then it's either high nut slots, as has been suggested, or you need to compensate the nut by moving it a little closer to the first fret. This flattens all the notes on that string by about the same amount in terms of musical cents. Again, this is something that has only really been worked out over the past twenty years or so, and the best explanation is in Gore's book, although there are threads on in here and on other lists.

redir · #22 10-13-2021, 11:46 AM

What happens when you (properly) put a capo on the 1st fret? Does it still play sharp?

I've never heard the need to make a compensated nut on any of the guitars that I have ever made and I have sold some to quality musicians with good ears who never complained and even complimented me on having a gutiar that plays well in tune. I understand that some musicians with perfect pitch may have a problem with it but the short end of that story is you can NEVER make a guitar play in perfect tune.

The trick is to cut the end of the fretbaord a hair closer to the first fret and of course set the saddle back. When I slot a fretboard I make a zero fret then with a back saw I cut through the zero fret so that the nut compensation is half the width of the saw kerf, that's how little it takes.

It would be very difficult to do this on a guitar that is already built but if you are careful you can get it right.

rick-slo · #23 10-13-2021, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braintree56

Yes. It appears they are... To different degrees, but yes!

When you say "It's the saddle" what should I be looking for? I'm wondering if it would make sense to just put in a new nut and
saddle.

With just a saddle location issue the amount of the sharpness of the fretting would increase as you fret higher and
higher on the fretboard (being least on the first fret). So likely regardless what the saddle position contributes you
still have some nut issues (that said most guitar do have sharpness issues there).

Braintree56 · #24 10-13-2021, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redir

What happens when you (properly) put a capo on the 1st fret? Does it still play sharp?

I've never heard the need to make a compensated nut on any of the guitars that I have ever made and I have sold some to quality musicians with good ears who never complained and even complimented me on having a gutiar that plays well in tune. I understand that some musicians with perfect pitch may have a problem with it but the short end of that story is you can NEVER make a guitar play in perfect tune.

The trick is to cut the end of the fretbaord a hair closer to the first fret and of course set the saddle back. When I slot a fretboard I make a zero fret then with a back saw I cut through the zero fret so that the nut compensation is half the width of the saw kerf, that's how little it takes.

It would be very difficult to do this on a guitar that is already built but if you are careful you can get it right.

I'll try this out when I get home. One of the repairs that I had done years ago was to have the bridge reglued. Would it be possible that the repair guy didn't put the bridge back in the correct place? I'm doubtful because I don't remember it being an immediate problem and it's definitely really bad right now. But I wanted to put it out there as a possibility.

I truly appreciate all the responses! It really helps to post about this stuff. I'm reading as much as I can, but my guitar just seems different than what I'm reading on-line.

Braintree56 · #25 10-13-2021, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick-slo

With just a saddle location issue the amount of the sharpness of the fretting would increase as you fret higher and
higher on the fretboard (being least on the first fret). So likely regardless what the saddle position contributes you
still have some nut issues (that said most guitar do have sharpness issues there).

I'll check the amount of sharpness. I believe that the notes are equally sharp all the way up (or at least close to it) and not a gradual increase in sharpness.

Braintree56 · #26 10-13-2021, 03:13 PM

I just checked and with the capo at the first fret (and I retune with the capo), it stays in tune all the way up!

rick-slo · #27 10-13-2021, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braintree56

I just checked and with the capo at the first fret (and I retune with the capo), it stays in tune all the way up!

Well there you go then, a nut issue.

John Arnold · #28 10-13-2021, 03:32 PM

You need to shorten the distance between the nut and the first fret. Either trim the end of the fingerboard, or craft a stepped nut that overhangs the fingerboard. This stepped nut can be fabricated by adding a thin strip of bone to the face of the nut.
There is a calculation for the correct distance between the nut and the first fret. Measure the distance between the nut and the 12th fret and multiply that by 0.1122.
The previous photo of a compensated nut lengthens the distance between the nut and the first fret on certain strings, which will make your problem worse. The only way that can work is if the nut to first fret distance has been shortened.
Because the string is bent at a sharper angle when fretted on the first fret, the nut to first fret can be a bit shorter than the calculated distance. Anywhere between 0.012" and 0.035" is common. The 0.012" arises naturally from cutting the fingerboard end with a 0.024" fret slotting blade.
There is another cause for this......improperly cut nut slots. If the slot is cut so that the string can vibrate in the slot, it lengthens the vibrating string. The nut slots should be angled down toward the peghead, so that the string vibration stops at the face of the nut. Badly cut slots can also create an annoying buzz that is less obvious than fret buzz.

Fathand · #29 10-13-2021, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redir

The trick is to cut the end of the fretbaord a hair closer to the first fret and of course set the saddle back.

This is how the large majority of Stelling banjos are built. Short 1st fret and compensated nut. I love my Stelling but often feel it plays out of tune although those with better ears than mine say it plays great.

Brucebubs · #30 10-13-2021, 05:49 PM

Now it's been established the nut is most likely the problem it might be wise to just check where on the nut the strings actually make last contact before extending over the fretboard.

By that I mean the very last point of contact between the string and the nut should be right where the nut meets the fretboard and not some distance behind it.