Protecting a song you've written

[Cecil6243]

Is there a process for protecting a piece you've written as in a copy-write? My late mother-in-law used to do that with the poetry she wrote.

And hypothetically if an artist uses material you composed how can you retain ownership if you don't sell the rights?

Just curious how this works as I have heard horror stories of musician being taken advantage of or having songs stolen right out from under them with no real recourse fighting against a well funded law firm.

[JonPR]

All you really need to do is find some way of dating your original, in a way that can't be faked later. I.e. to prove your priority if anyone decides to copy your song and claim it for themselves.

So you could just post it online somewhere (scary as that may be if you don't want it stolen), because that will automatically date it, and it will stay online forever, of course. Or keep a copy on your hard drive - assuming you're going to retain that hard drive, and keep it safe...

If that's not enough for peace of mind, you can pay a government body to register it for you:

In the US: https://www.copyright.gov/registration/
Fees at the end here: https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ04.pdf

That's a nice way for them to make money without doing any work.... but it obviously is about as official as you can get. (Pay them rather more and they actually will do some sort of work for you, as listed.)

[KevWind]

If you search here for Copyright you will find numerous threads on it.

In a nutshell::
Legally a Copyright protection is automatically created as soon as you affix the music and lyrics to a tangible medium paper - tape - digital file etc.

That said "Protecting" is a whole other discussion (if not ultimately somewhat of an illusion) .

Establishing a date while helping with a claim as to chronology (time ,date) of possession ,,, is by no means a protection or proof of authorship , because it does not establish a method for legal remedy .

The only venue that a court of law will recognize to pursue a legal remedy is if the song is registered with the US copyright office as per the link in Jon's post

[pegleghowell]

my songs come with built in protection..they`re so rubbish no self respecting musician would touch them with a bargepole.

[dnf777]

The easiest and cheapest way is to file a printed copy with your county clerk of courts. A couple dollars, and you have an official date stamp and protected storage, with certified copies available. Copy-rite is not the only recognized mode of protection in court, but it is expedient.

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

Is there a process for protecting a piece you've written as in a copy-write? My late mother-in-law used to do that with the poetry she wrote.

And hypothetically if an artist uses material you composed how can you retain ownership if you don't sell the rights?

Just curious how this works as I have heard horror stories of musician being taken advantage of or having songs stolen right out from under them with no real recourse fighting against a well funded law firm.

Regardless of all the "protection" schemes that you read on the internet the ONLY way to have a work copyrighted is to submit the work and associated fee to the U.S. copyright and trademark office. It initially will be marked as pending and will be approved or rejected when the office does its investigation. In many cases a copyright and $3 will get you an ice cream cone.

Do note that U.S. patent, copyright and trademark offices have a disclaimer that they are NOT responsible if there's a challenged copyright at any point in the future.

The laws periodically change for copyright, so the latest and greatest info is available from the patent and trademark office.

As an example, patents have recently been changed to make anyone's ideas fair game if there has been no development or actual use of a mechanical patent within a one year time frame. There are lots of these types of changes, so it's best to find out exactly what your money gets you. In many cases it isn't much.

A patent attorney I worked with told me the best thing to do if you have an idea for a patentable product is to do the development and market it as quickly as possible. He told me that if an invention is deemed profitable that foreign companies will quickly modify your product and market it at a much lower price.

A bit different for songs, but the general idea of protecting work is similar.

Ownership of a work and licensing a work for use by an artist are two entirely independent processes. You can legally retain or sell your rights as you choose.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by JonPR

All you really need to do is find some way of dating your original, in a way that can't be faked later. I.e. to prove your priority if anyone decides to copy your song and claim it for themselves.

So you could just post it online somewhere (scary as that may be if you don't want it stolen), because that will automatically date it, and it will stay online forever, of course. Or keep a copy on your hard drive - assuming you're going to retain that hard drive, and keep it safe...
)

The above is a myth that refuses to die.

[KevWind]

Unfortunately there is much mythology in the various "poor mans copyright" notions and it refuses to die because of the confusion over the difference between a copyright existing and it being legally enforceable

A Poor Mans Copyright does serve to establish a time frame but only a time frame ,,, and only a time frame for possession of the work,, not for the authorship rights of the work.
A PMC only potentially legally establishes that you had possession of a copyrighted work at a given time, that you mailed to yourself, or published on Youtube or online or filed a copy with a clerk of court etc.etc.etc. But it does not legally establish you are the author of said work and have the rights to that work ....

And Rudy technically it is not true that the only way to have a work "copyrighted" (depending on what that verb means) is through the US copyright office ,,, Because ( a copyright exists as soon as you affix it to a tangible medium ) It is true however that registration with the US copyright office is the only legally recognized way to document yourself as the author of an original work.



Here is a good article from the American Bar Association on this subject

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/i...pyright-myths/

Here are some pertinent excerpts

"Mailing yourself a copy of your work or having it notarized has no legal effect. While it may serve as evidence that the work is in your possession as of the date it was mailed or notarized, it in no way proves that you are the author who created that work or holds the rights in it. The only way to register a copyright and to have documentation of your ownership in a copyrightable work is to file an application with the Copyright Office, which leads us to the next myth."

And while you technically hold the rights to your original work as soon as it is created whether you register it or not,,, you will have not have any established legal recourse for infringement remedy if it is not registered ....................



An author cannot bring a lawsuit for copyright infringement, however, without a certificate of registration from the Copyright Office. The U.S. Supreme Court recently affirmed in Fourth Estate Public Benefit Corp. v. Wall-Street.com, LLC that a registration of copyrights, and not merely an application filed with the Copyright Office, is required in order to file a lawsuit alleging copyright infringement.11 Similarly, unless the application for registration of copyrights is filed with the Copyright Office within three months of first publication of the work or prior to infringement,12 certain valuable remedies are not available to the copyright holder—including the right to receive statutory damages up to $150,000 per work infringed, attorney fees and costs, injunctions, and impounding and disposition of infringing articles.13

[jim1960]

The only time I copyrighted an individual song was in 2018 and the fee was $55. I believe that for the same $55 you can copyright up to 20 songs if they're released as a collection (an online collection counts, it doesn't have to be a physical cd or anything like that). Doing it song by song can be expensive. Two times prior to that I've copyrighted groups of songs and both times the fee covered them all. I had to take the individual song route on the last one because it was for a movie and the credit was being split.

[dnf777]

Originally Posted by KevWind

A PMC only potentially legally establishes that you had possession of a copyrighted work at a given time, that you mailed to yourself, or published on Youtube or online or filed a copy with a clerk of court etc.etc.etc. But it does not legally establish you are the author of said work and have the rights to that work ....


]

Nor does a formal copyright, in many cases. (hence the need for expensive lawyers, courtrooms, and lawyers!) We all know of cases where formal copyrights were over-ridden by a small guy with enough documentation to convince a judge otherwise. But I agree, a filing with clerk of courts only date-stamps and archives your work. But that IS an important component of legal ownership. Just not all of it.

(I'm not a lawyer, but had a lengthy and expensive session with a patent attorney, including songwriting, as he himself is an amateur writer)

[keith.rogers]

Originally Posted by dnf777

Nor does a formal copyright, in many cases. (hence the need for expensive lawyers, courtrooms, and lawyers!) We all know of cases where formal copyrights were over-ridden by a small guy with enough documentation to convince a judge otherwise. But I agree, a filing with clerk of courts only date-stamps and archives your work. But that IS an important component of legal ownership. Just not all of it.

(I'm not a lawyer, but had a lengthy and expensive session with a patent attorney, including songwriting, as he himself is an amateur writer)

There's no such thing as a "formal copyright." This only confuses things.

I actually don't know of a "small guy" overriding anything with something other than another registered copyright. (Yes, some of those claims were ridiculous that have been granted, but I don't think they originated with self-addressed, unopened letter.) Which ones are you referring to?

As others have tried to state, the copyright is yours as soon as you create the original work, in some physical or even digital form. What the copyright *registration* does is establish legal rights that *might* have enough financial incentive to give you the ability to find lawyers to take up an infringement case. Nobody is going to heed a cease and desist order to stop using your copyrighted material unless there's a financial penalty.

A corollary is that unless there's real money involved, infringement claims are likely a waste of time and money. Someone records you performing your own song at an open mic and posts it on YouTube without your permission. That's infringement, but without registration, "who're you gonna call" that'll give you the time of day? (Cue Johnny Cash singing "Nobody.")

And, yes, IANAL.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Cecil6243

Is there a process for protecting a piece you've written as in a copy-write?.

Hi Cecil…

Song writers who are prolific mostly cannot afford to copyright & register every song they write. And so many poor-man-copyright ideas have shown that they won't hold up in court.

You might be able to contact/find a song writer's guild (writers' guilds meet as groups several times a year in many cities for the purpose of writing better and growing). They would likely be a source of current copy-right practices information. They write for the purpose of selling to performers who purchase and record their songs, lyrics, poetry etc.

I asked a couple guys who had music recording contracts when they copyright their songs/music (they are prolific writers). Both said "When I'm in the studio recording the project my agent submits the copyright paperwork…"

I asked why wait till then, and both said they have written hundreds of songs, but only recorded dozens which got national air-play. They felt it was too expensive to file proper copy-right for hundreds of 'ideas'. They indicated what they were doing was common.

That was over 15 years ago, so it may have changed in the industry now.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by dnf777

Nor does a formal copyright, in many cases. (hence the need for expensive lawyers, courtrooms, and lawyers!) We all know of cases where formal copyrights were over-ridden by a small guy with enough documentation to convince a judge otherwise. But I agree, a filing with clerk of courts only date-stamps and archives your work. But that IS an important component of legal ownership. Just not all of it.

Perhaps it's just a personal coinage of terminology but as keith noted, there is no "formal copyright" in the legal sense,,, there is Copyright and there is a Registered Copyright with the US Copyright office.

And yes correct if you are saying having a registered copyright does not prevent infringement from occurring ,, nor does it prevent a legal challenge to your ownership of the copyright. But it does establish your registered and dated claim to ownership .

And No I personally do not know of any case where a "small guy" (whatever that means ) presumably without a registered claim, has challenged a registered claim and won ... But it may have happened so please provide a link as it would be very interesting to read about it .

I have however seen where owners of a registered copyright have claimed that someone with registered a claim for a different song, that it was enough like a the first registered song to be awarded damages or came to a compensation agreement...

(I'm not a lawyer, but had a lengthy and expensive session with a patent attorney, including songwriting, as he himself is an amateur writer)

. If your patent attorney told you that filing a work with a clerk of court " IS an important component of legal ownership. Just not all of it"
Then your attorney is "patently" mistaken (ha punny there)

A clerk of court does not do a search for a prior claim of ownership and cannot offer a certificate of claim of ownership The US Copyright Office does both of those ........


Again filing with a clerk of court can establish a legal claim of date of possession,,,,,, not ownership,,,, please read the first paragraph in the excerpt from the American Bar Association I posted

Then too this bodes the obvious question of objective practicality... If you going to go to the trouble of filing with a clerk of court to only get 1/2 way to where you want to be protection wise , why not just file it with the Copyright Office and be all the way there ?

[dnf777]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Perhaps it's just a personal coinage of terminology but as keith noted, there is no "formal copyright" in the legal sense,,, there is Copyright and there is a Registered Copyright with the US Copyright office.

And yes correct if you are saying having a registered copyright does not prevent infringement from occurring ,, nor does it prevent a legal challenge to your ownership of the copyright. But it does establish your registered and dated claim to ownership .

And No I personally do not know of any case where a "small guy" (whatever that means ) presumably without a registered claim, has challenged a registered claim and won ... But it may have happened so please provide a link as it would be very interesting to read about it .

I have however seen where owners of a registered copyright have claimed that someone with registered a claim for a different song, that it was enough like a the first registered song to be awarded damages or came to a compensation agreement...






. If your patent attorney told you that filing a work with a clerk of court " IS an important component of legal ownership. Just not all of it"
Then your attorney is "patently" mistaken (ha punny there)

A clerk of court does not do a search for a prior claim of ownership and cannot offer a certificate of claim of ownership The US Copyright Office does both of those ........


Again filing with a clerk of court can establish a legal claim of date of possession,,,,,, not ownership,,,, please read the first paragraph in the excerpt from the American Bar Association I posted

Then too this bodes the obvious question of objective practicality... If you going to go to the trouble of filing with a clerk of court to only get 1/2 way to where you want to be protection wise , why not just file it with the Copyright Office and be all the way there ?

This is exactly why our court system is backlogged for years! And please dont ask what I mean by “backlogged” or “years”.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by dnf777

This is exactly why our court system is backlogged for years! And please don't ask what I mean by “backlogged” or “years”.

Yes Our court system is often backlogged (But of course "backlogged" is a clear unambiguous word as is "years" (a bit exaggerated perhaps , depending on the jurisdiction but unambiguous ) However I seriously doubt people bringing copyright infringement cases is the reason. In fact currently Covid is now one of biggest influences in backlog

And to clarify I was not asking what you meant by "small guy" I was simply observing it is not a correct legal description and is also ambiguous in being unclear in how you meant it, or thought it applied, to the discussion .

But the actual point of my post was simply pointing out that the only legally recognized "Claim of copyright ownership" is a Registered copyright,,, and having that will allow you bring a legal suit . Where as "Filing with a clerk of court" ,, or "mailing it to your self" ,, or "publishing it on YouTube" et.al ,, is not recognized as a "claim of ownership" and does nothing to help establish a claim of ownership, and will probably not allow you to bring legal action .... arguably because of the backlog in civil courts ....




.