Mountain bike tyres

[Andyrondack]

I picked up a hardly used Kona Lanai from a young man who wanted to lose some weight cycling to work but found it all too much effort for him, shame really he clearly seemed to be a contender for type 2 diabetes, couldn't help wondering that had he bought a lighter bike with tyres suitable for roads he just might have found it manageable.
This bike is quite heavy but I have a Shimano XT drivetrain , new forks to fit and wheels being made now from DT Swiss rims and XT hubs.
The tyres on the bike are WTB Trail Boss, according to info on the net they weigh over 1.1KG each, I can't weigh them because they are glued to the rim on one side presumably to facilitate converting them to tubless.
I have no intention of keeping them or the wheels and the tubeless system holds no interest for me but I am wondering what people with such glued on tyres do when the tires need changing? I tried pulling one away from the rim but I don't have the strength. When they do come off do they come off clean or leave a strip of stuck on rubber remaining?
I won't be keeping anything from these wheels but I am just curious?

[imwjl]

Trail Boss are very good tires and no tire of that sort or for those wheels are glued on. The Alex rims are a popular OEM rim that work well. You are just observing the way modern rims and tires fit. They won't fit any differently if you use tubes except tubes will weigh more and be less reliable.

Tubeless rims have a smaller diameter in the center. You need the bead of the tires there to manipulate them. If your hands don't have the strength to push or pull the bead from the larger diameter inside edge, there are some tools but few need that complication. One I tried broke. Just put the wheel on a rug or something that won't let it get scratched and use your foot to push the bead from outer to the smaller diameter inner.

I know that bike from the hundreds of beginner and family riders where I'm retired as director at a bike park, and involvement in the kids' scholastic bike league. Some of my son's friends have that bike. We've worked on them. It's not a particularly light bike or one most would upgrade. It has modern geometry but it's an 8 speed bike and it doesn't have axle spacing for more up to date hubs or wheels.

Most of the parts still made for the older axle and frame standards including forks are not in same categories for weight, performance and strength as the ones for a Kona such as the Honzo. I got my son a used Honzo where the upgrades such as SLX, XT, a Revelation fork are compatible and work well.

Enjoy doing what you wish but this reads like what I observe often. For a car analogy, it's like when someone takes an entry level Ford Focus or similar Honda and bolts on exotic parts. You still have a Ford Focus.

If you want that bike to feel more speedy swap the rear Trail Boss for a WTB Riddler. If you want the bike to be lighter, without breaking the bank, SRAM NX 11 speed and make the front 1x would be modestly priced and work well.

Edit: On changing the tires and not going tubeless... Remember the rim has a different profile. The bead and the tube both have to sit in that narrow smaller diameter part. Be careful that you don't cut or pinch the tubes.

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

I picked up a hardly used Kona Lanai from a young man who wanted to lose some weight cycling to work but found it all too much effort for him, shame really he clearly seemed to be a contender for type 2 diabetes, couldn't help wondering that had he bought a lighter bike with tyres suitable for roads he just might have found it manageable.
This bike is quite heavy but I have a Shimano XT drivetrain , new forks to fit and wheels being made now from DT Swiss rims and XT hubs.
The tyres on the bike are WTB Trail Boss, according to info on the net they weigh over 1.1KG each, I can't weigh them because they are glued to the rim on one side presumably to facilitate converting them to tubless.
I have no intention of keeping them or the wheels and the tubeless system holds no interest for me but I am wondering what people with such glued on tyres do when the tires need changing? I tried pulling one away from the rim but I don't have the strength. When they do come off do they come off clean or leave a strip of stuck on rubber remaining?
I won't be keeping anything from these wheels but I am just curious?

Congrats on the new bike! As said above, the tires aren't "glued" to the rim, they're just a bit stuck from the tubeless sealant. A firm pull will unseat them from the rim. Your local bike shop can help if they're really stuck on, they should do it for free. For about $15 they will re-install whatever tires you do want for tubeless.

When tires need changing, we just remove them from the rims like any other tire, but with that firm tug to unseat them. Then some rubbing alcohol and a rag will remove the sealant. It takes a few minutes. It IS more of a hassle than just installing a tube, but that small extra hassle is paid for a hundred times over in not repairing flats all the time. The last time I got a flat was in July at Northstar bike park on a seriously heavy day in some rocks. I just pulled the tire and put in a tube. Before that it had been 3 years or so since I flatted, that was a knob ripped off in a rock garden.

Tubeless is better, and it's not close. But it does take some learning, and mostly the benefits are for heavy off-road riding. If you're riding mostly on roads, the benefits will be much less. Mostly it's about more traction and less pinch flats, not as big an issue on roads or gravel. This video will show you all you need to know about removal and installation.

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by imwjl

Trail Boss are very good tires and no tire of that sort or for those wheels are glued on. The Alex rims are a popular OEM rim that work well. You are just observing the way modern rims and tires fit. They won't fit any differently if you use tubes except tubes will weigh more and be less reliable.

Tubeless rims have a smaller diameter in the center. You need the bead of the tires there to manipulate them. If your hands don't have the strength to push or pull the bead from the larger diameter inside edge, there are some tools but few need that complication. One I tried broke. Just put the wheel on a rug or something that won't let it get scratched and use your foot to push the bead from outer to the smaller diameter inner.

I know that bike from the hundreds of beginner and family riders where I'm retired as director at a bike park, and involvement in the kids' scholastic bike league. Some of my son's friends have that bike. We've worked on them. It's not a particularly light bike or one most would upgrade. It has modern geometry but it's an 8 speed bike and it doesn't have axle spacing for more up to date hubs or wheels.

Most of the parts still made for the older axle and frame standards including forks are not in same categories for weight, performance and strength as the ones for a Kona such as the Honzo. I got my son a used Honzo where the upgrades such as SLX, XT, a Revelation fork are compatible and work well.

Enjoy doing what you wish but this reads like what I observe often. For a car analogy, it's like when someone takes an entry level Ford Focus or similar Honda and bolts on exotic parts. You still have a Ford Focus.
.

No it will work fine, the XT rear hub I got fits the same axle width as the existing hub that is
10×135mm QR the new front fork has a non boost through axle so I got the hub to match.
Sure 1×12 would have been nice but without a rear boost axle I'll do without and 2×11 provides me with the gearing range I require.
8 speed uses the same axle width as 9,10,11 speed.
The Lanai frame is just the same as the more expensive Cindercone, the frame fits me and suits the general leisure riding I do when all the bikes supplied as stock with better components and wheel builds have geometries suited to bike park enthusiasts, that sort of bike is not appropriate for my intended use.
By the time this bike is built very little will be original.
I'm still sure the WTB tyres are glued on on one side.
There is no sealant in the WTB tyres, they come new 'tubeless ready' with an inner tube fitted. The guy I bought it from had no real interest in bikes and wasn't about to mess with sealant.
A tyre that weighs over a kilo absolutely overwhelms the claimed benefit of tubeless so I won't be keeping them, my replacement tyres are wider but weigh 800 gms so that's a saving of 600gms just changing tyres.
I was thinking of doing what Dirk Hoffman sugested and taking the wheels to a bike shop and getting them to sort it with sealant first time and get some advice about removing the glued on tyre, just to try out this system but then I read that the sealant needs changing every few months otherwise it dries out, really can't be bothered with all that, I got three bikes now to keep maintained that was partly the reason I went for XT hubs as they work well on my other bikes and I have spare seals and bearings.
Will post some weights when the new bike is built.

[Dirk Hofman]

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

I was thinking of doing what Dirk Hoffman sugested and taking the wheels to a bike shop and getting them to sort it with sealant first time and get some advice about removing the glued on tyre, just to try out this system but then I read that the sealant needs changing every few months otherwise it dries out, really can't be bothered with all that, I got three bikes now to keep maintained that was partly the reason I went for XT hubs as they work well on my other bikes and I have spare seals and bearings.
Will post some weights when the new bike is built.

Might still be useful to have them help you with the glued on tire if you need it. That's just weird, I can't imagine why a tire would literally be glued on.

You don't need to change the sealant every few months. I mean, sure, I guess that's best practice, but the beauty of tubeless is that it's set and forget. Much less hassle than tires with tubes. Just something new to learn, and it's not hard. But again, for your use case, it's not a big deal if you're not interested, as mostly it's about traction for cornering and not getting flats all the time. Folks lived with tubes for a hundred years, they work.

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

A tyre that weighs over a kilo absolutely overwhelms the claimed benefit of tubeless so I won't be keeping them, my replacement tyres are wider but weigh 800 gms so that's a saving of 600gms just changing tyres.

Lighter tires are great and make a major, meaningful difference when climbing or doing long XC rides. For your use case I think you're spot on to get rid of a meaty, heavy tire, as the main benefits of a heavy tire are traction, traction, traction, and durability from a heavy casing. These things matter a lot to the aggressive MTB rider. They are transformative, just as lighter XC tires are for long rides and climbing.

The benefits of tubeless are not really about weight, and heavy tires are heavy tires, whether running tubes or going tubeless. You can get heavy or light tires working in either system.

[FrankHudson]

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

I picked up a hardly used Kona Lanai from a young man who wanted to lose some weight cycling to work but found it all too much effort for him, shame really he clearly seemed to be a contender for type 2 diabetes, couldn't help wondering that had he bought a lighter bike with tyres suitable for roads he just might have found it manageable.
This bike is quite heavy but I have a Shimano XT drivetrain , new forks to fit and wheels being made now from DT Swiss rims and XT hubs.
The tyres on the bike are WTB Trail Boss, according to info on the net they weigh over 1.1KG each, I can't weigh them because they are glued to the rim on one side presumably to facilitate converting them to tubless.
I have no intention of keeping them or the wheels and the tubeless system holds no interest for me but I am wondering what people with such glued on tyres do when the tires need changing? I tried pulling one away from the rim but I don't have the strength. When they do come off do they come off clean or leave a strip of stuck on rubber remaining?
I won't be keeping anything from these wheels but I am just curious?

As the thread has already explained, you may not understand tubeless tire setup (or the previous owner didn't) Just as with guitar setup/repair a good bike mechanic like a good luthier may be the best way to solve your original problem.

Your idea to change the tires to fit the bike's current use was likely worthwhile. It's not like putting expensive parts on junky low-end car -- it's like changing string type, gauge, etc is on a guitar, a key thing in making it work for the preferences and purposes of the rider (player).

Tires with aggressive knobs and tread are important in many off-road uses (I ride in Minnesota winters, that stuff plus studs are important on the street part of the year!) But for everyday riding on streets and paths something smoother rolling will make a difference that will feel like a performance improvement when riding (and if one measures such things with a route computer or app it may be measurable). But note the "feel" statement. A more supple tire with less aggressive tread will feel nicier to the rider. Sometimes you can shop for that better feel by looking at tire weights and thread counts (higher thread counts tend to be suppler, but other design features come into play). Sometimes, like with guitars and strings, you find a set that works and you say Ah Hah!

I'm often puzzled by the concern and consequent advice regarding bike weight down to the gram. Yes, in racing I can see any performance advantage down to the gram (and aero tweaks too) can have definitive value.* But in riding for fun, fitness, and transportation (which is what I use my bikes for daily) I care little about it. I like the bike to work well, carry stuff well, be comfortable and enjoyable to ride -- and modern bike weights a few pounds or even a kilogram or two apart are largely immaterial to my experience. This may be a YMMV thing.

A young person with Type 2 risks is likely overweight (hey, I am too, overweight, not young). Like learning to play a guitar you have to get over the hump of wanting to be active and then being active. A good bike fit, proper maintenance, and user preference things like tires and saddles are warranted regardless of how high or low-end the bike in my considered opinion.

*Though it's not my life, I think some of this may be engendered by those new and less in shape going on group rides where they get dropped by more in-shape folks perhaps on higher-zoot bikes. That's not enjoyable, and causes some (too many?) potential bike riders to either give up or get out the wallet.

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

I'm often puzzled by the concern and consequent advice regarding bike weight down to the gram. Yes, in racing I can see any performance advantage down to the gram (and aero tweaks too) can have definitive value.* But in riding for fun, fitness, and transportation (which is what I use my bikes for daily) I care little about it. I like the bike to work well, carry stuff well, be comfortable and enjoyable to ride -- and modern bike weights a few pounds or even a kilogram or two apart are largely immaterial to my experience. This may be a YMMV thing.

The weight obsession often comes from past eras and assumptions. Two things stick in mind with me on that topic.

1) I did spend a whole lot of money on a seriously light and high end bike this year. Fit and comfort more than weight impacted my rides. Those rides are all way beyond general recreational stuff. For most of the past 6 years we have had near identical Trek trail and fat bikes in low and high end versions. Over dozens of rides on same trails the weight never made a difference like having a good day or a new set of tires.

2) My personal associates and friends are materials, design, wheel, tire and suspension engineers, prototype shop or race shop support for some major bike companies. Marketing people too. Some friends and acquaintances are elite and for some niches world-ranked riders. They quantify and prove weight and notions on tires are often wrong, and you have to be an elite athlete to take advantage of some parameters. The engineers will tease how some achievements are most important for the marketing department.

Maybe the thought about glue is just some sealant or sealant boogers???

That Lanai is a nice entry level MTB. My advice is for the most part enjoy it the way it is. I use the Trail Boss front and Riddler rear combo on my Kona hard tail. Trail Boss rolls very well for a knobby tire.

If you want a bike with XT parts you should buy a new bike with XT. It is impossible to beat the value of an OEM parts group. I have an all XT and an Alivio/Deore combo bike. A modest fork and a Pike. You have to be an fairly skilled or expert rider on expert trails for the better stuff to really make a difference.

[Andyrondack]

The weight obsession often comes from past eras and assumptions. Two things stick in mind with me on that topic.

1) I did spend a whole lot of money on a seriously light and high end bike this year. Fit and comfort more than weight impacted my rides. Those rides are all way beyond general recreational stuff. For most of the past 6 years we have had near identical Trek trail and fat bikes in low and high end versions. Over dozens of rides on same trails the weight never made a difference like having a good day or a new set of tires.
Not my experience at all, at 16 I commuted to work on the same cheap heavy drop bar bike I bought with pocket money while still at school, as soon as I could I bought a lightweight Audax style bike with 531 tubing, went like a rocket, ok shorter chainstays and narrow hard tyres played a part and meant it wasn't very comfortable and not suited for carrying very heavy panniers but it sure was easy to move forward, today I am more concerned about being able to cycle for hours without wearing myself out any more than I have to, my Reynolds 725 steel framed bikes are lighter than the Kona I bought and as a consequence I find they take less effort to keep them moving, with an ally frame on the Kona it's can't be the frame that accounts for the heavier weight but the components that's why I'm changing them.
You mention bike fit, maybe you don't read my posts but as I have frequently stated I got the Kona because it seems to be virtually the only bike available for 27.5 tyres with a frame that fits me and a geometry that's not optimised for downhill speed .

''I know that bike from the hundreds of beginner and family riders where I'm retired as director at a bike park, and involvement in the kids' scholastic bike league. Some of my son's friends have that bike. We've worked on them. It's not a particularly light bike or one most would upgrade. It has modern geometry but it's an 8 speed bike and it doesn't have axle spacing for more up to date hubs or wheels.

Most of the parts still made for the older axle and frame standards including forks are not in same categories for weight, performance and strength as the ones for a Kona such as the Honzo. I got my son a used Honzo where the upgrades such as SLX, XT, a Revelation fork are compatible and work well.''

.
If it would have been possible to get a frame with rear 'Boost' spacing without compromising more important parameters (for me!) then I might have done so for the sake of 1X12 gearing,, but it is not going to spoil my day if I use 2X11, it's more important to me to have a wide range of gearing even if that does add some more weight. I have no need of the stronger wheels and hubs made possible by the wider 'Boost' spacing because I am never ever going to be doing jumps and bike park stuff, seems no matter how much I point this out it does not seem to register, it's all about where you choose to make the compromises to suit the use I put to MY bike I have absolutely no need whatsoever for front 'Boost' spacing which meant I was able to take advantage of buying a heavily discounted thru axle Rockshox Reba 100mm fork which has gone out of 'fashion', could have saved even more money/weight and looked for a 9mm QR Fork but the argument in favour of through axles seems to make sense.



Apart from the steel version all the Honzos and the Kona Lanai, Fire Mountain and Kona Cindercone are made from exactly the same 6061 butted alloy
I really surprises me that with your experience in the industry you haven't noticed that all bike brands take exactly the same frame, paint it a different colour rename it then spec it with different levels of componentry to suit differing price points in the available market.
It makes perfect sense for me to do the same and upgrade the Lanai to a point beyond the Cindercone because I can afford to do that.


"If you want a bike with XT parts you should buy a new bike with XT. It is impossible to beat the value of an OEM parts group. I have an all XT and an Alivio/Deore combo bike. A modest fork and a Pike. You have to be an fairly skilled or expert rider on expert trails for the better stuff to really make a difference."

Impossible and not really, not at all.
Impossible because no bike brand markets a bike with XT level components on a frame that fit's me and with a geometry suitable for leisure use .
Not really, not at all. I have been riding a drop bar bike specked with XT level
hubs and drivetrain for almost twenty years now so I am quite familiar with it's value to me .
Also as I have pointed out before but maybe you did not notice, I already have XT hubs on 2 bikes so I have spare bearings and more importantly spare seals that work well at keeping the water out.

There is a financial risk associated with XT rear hubs which is that should I want to change the frame in the future I would be limited to 135mm rear dropout spacing unless I have the wheel rebuilt with a different hub whereas cartridge bearing hubs can be adapted to fit different frame sizes .
By changing the front fork I reduce the weight of the front of the bike by a Kg, if you think any one needs to be a skilled or expert rider before they appreciate that then you are misguided.
If you put narrower road tyres on your Honzo and used it for the same kind of riding that you use your drop handle bar bike do you really not think that you would not notice the extra weight ? I think you would, on a short ride it might not matter to you but after a few hours you would really notice it.
Also If I could buy a bike with suitable fit and geometry that had XT level componentry I would have to put up with hydraulic brakes, this is a level of complexity and sophistication that I do not need or want at the speed I ride mechanicals stop me just fine, but I have bought good quality TRP Spykes
which are lighter and than even XT callipers, but more importantly easily serviceable by me, but I'm sure some of you will find something negative to write about that because that seems to be the theme of this thread.

"Maybe the thought about glue is just some sealant or sealant boogers???"
As I have previously written but maybe you did not read or comprehend, there is no sealant in these tyres and there never has been any sealant in these tyres. I will at some point take these wheels to a bike shop even if only to donate them as charity items and ask about how they can be removed then, I tried standing on the tyre pulling it pushing it with gloved hands and pliers it only comes off the rim on one side.

" I got my son a used Honzo where the upgrades such as SLX, XT, a Revelation fork are compatible and work well."

This is basically what I'm doing with the Lanai which is made from the same alloy as the Honzo + upgrade the wheels as well, to repeat I do not jump so I don't need wider axles.
As you have pointed out in previous posts the rolling weight of the wheels makes the most difference to the ride so how come you believe that when you do something it makes perfect sense but when some stranger on the internet does the same thing you feel compelled to point out that you believe they are an idiot who does not know what they are doing?
I never would have thought that building a fun item such as a bike could attract so much hostility .What is it about the internet that attracts such nastiness?

[imwjl]

Originally Posted by Andyrondack

The weight obsession often comes from past eras and assumptions. Two things stick in mind with me on that topic.

1) I did spend a whole lot of money on a seriously light and high end bike this year. Fit and comfort more than weight impacted my rides. Those rides are all way beyond general recreational stuff. For most of the past 6 years we have had near identical Trek trail and fat bikes in low and high end versions. Over dozens of rides on same trails the weight never made a difference like having a good day or a new set of tires.
Not my experience at all, at 16 I commuted to work on the same cheap heavy drop bar bike I bought with pocket money while still at school, as soon as I could I bought a lightweight Audax style bike with 531 tubing, went like a rocket, ok shorter chainstays and narrow hard tyres played a part and meant it wasn't very comfortable and not suited for carrying very heavy panniers but it sure was easy to move forward, today I am more concerned about being able to cycle for hours without wearing myself out any more than I have to, my Reynolds 725 steel framed bikes are lighter than the Kona I bought and as a consequence I find they take less effort to keep them moving, with an ally frame on the Kona it's can't be the frame that accounts for the heavier weight but the components that's why I'm changing them.
You mention bike fit, maybe you don't read my posts but as I have frequently stated I got the Kona because it seems to be virtually the only bike available for 27.5 tyres with a frame that fits me and a geometry that's not optimised for downhill speed .

''I know that bike from the hundreds of beginner and family riders where I'm retired as director at a bike park, and involvement in the kids' scholastic bike league. Some of my son's friends have that bike. We've worked on them. It's not a particularly light bike or one most would upgrade. It has modern geometry but it's an 8 speed bike and it doesn't have axle spacing for more up to date hubs or wheels.

Most of the parts still made for the older axle and frame standards including forks are not in same categories for weight, performance and strength as the ones for a Kona such as the Honzo. I got my son a used Honzo where the upgrades such as SLX, XT, a Revelation fork are compatible and work well.''

.
If it would have been possible to get a frame with rear 'Boost' spacing without compromising more important parameters (for me!) then I might have done so for the sake of 1X12 gearing,, but it is not going to spoil my day if I use 2X11, it's more important to me to have a wide range of gearing even if that does add some more weight. I have no need of the stronger wheels and hubs made possible by the wider 'Boost' spacing because I am never ever going to be doing jumps and bike park stuff, seems no matter how much I point this out it does not seem to register, it's all about where you choose to make the compromises to suit the use I put to MY bike I have absolutely no need whatsoever for front 'Boost' spacing which meant I was able to take advantage of buying a heavily discounted thru axle Rockshox Reba 100mm fork which has gone out of 'fashion', could have saved even more money/weight and looked for a 9mm QR Fork but the argument in favour of through axles seems to make sense.



Apart from the steel version all the Honzos and the Kona Lanai, Fire Mountain and Kona Cindercone are made from exactly the same 6061 butted alloy
I really surprises me that with your experience in the industry you haven't noticed that all bike brands take exactly the same frame, paint it a different colour rename it then spec it with different levels of componentry to suit differing price points in the available market.
It makes perfect sense for me to do the same and upgrade the Lanai to a point beyond the Cindercone because I can afford to do that.


"If you want a bike with XT parts you should buy a new bike with XT. It is impossible to beat the value of an OEM parts group. I have an all XT and an Alivio/Deore combo bike. A modest fork and a Pike. You have to be an fairly skilled or expert rider on expert trails for the better stuff to really make a difference."

Impossible and not really, not at all.
Impossible because no bike brand markets a bike with XT level components on a frame that fit's me and with a geometry suitable for leisure use .
Not really, not at all. I have been riding a drop bar bike specked with XT level
hubs and drivetrain for almost twenty years now so I am quite familiar with it's value to me .
Also as I have pointed out before but maybe you did not notice, I already have XT hubs on 2 bikes so I have spare bearings and more importantly spare seals that work well at keeping the water out.

There is a financial risk associated with XT rear hubs which is that should I want to change the frame in the future I would be limited to 135mm rear dropout spacing unless I have the wheel rebuilt with a different hub whereas cartridge bearing hubs can be adapted to fit different frame sizes .
By changing the front fork I reduce the weight of the front of the bike by a Kg, if you think any one needs to be a skilled or expert rider before they appreciate that then you are misguided.
If you put narrower road tyres on your Honzo and used it for the same kind of riding that you use your drop handle bar bike do you really not think that you would not notice the extra weight ? I think you would, on a short ride it might not matter to you but after a few hours you would really notice it.
Also If I could buy a bike with suitable fit and geometry that had XT level componentry I would have to put up with hydraulic brakes, this is a level of complexity and sophistication that I do not need or want at the speed I ride mechanicals stop me just fine, but I have bought good quality TRP Spykes
which are lighter and than even XT callipers, but more importantly easily serviceable by me, but I'm sure some of you will find something negative to write about that because that seems to be the theme of this thread.

"Maybe the thought about glue is just some sealant or sealant boogers???"
As I have previously written but maybe you did not read or comprehend, there is no sealant in these tyres and there never has been any sealant in these tyres. I will at some point take these wheels to a bike shop even if only to donate them as charity items and ask about how they can be removed then, I tried standing on the tyre pulling it pushing it with gloved hands and pliers it only comes off the rim on one side.

" I got my son a used Honzo where the upgrades such as SLX, XT, a Revelation fork are compatible and work well."

This is basically what I'm doing with the Lanai which is made from the same alloy as the Honzo + upgrade the wheels as well, to repeat I do not jump so I don't need wider axles.
As you have pointed out in previous posts the rolling weight of the wheels makes the most difference to the ride so how come you believe that when you do something it makes perfect sense but when some stranger on the internet does the same thing you feel compelled to point out that you believe they are an idiot who does not know what they are doing?
I never would have thought that building a fun item such as a bike could attract so much hostility .What is it about the internet that attracts such nastiness?

I believe you are misinterpreting what's just a warning about diminishing returns for an exercise.

If you're in your 50s or older, what was that 531 Audax bike long ago is what most entry level in quality tier bikes are now.

On where you see XT, it's for standing up to the demands of expert and extreme off road riding. Not long ago XT parts were significant as what generally worked well. Now the way technology trickles down in products Alivio and Deore outperforms old XT. Why and where I have both grades and many I know do that is splitting what's quite extreme and not.

I should have pointed out steel for Honzos. They all started as steel all-mountain bikes.

It's easy to be misunderstood in a forum. Having been a bike park director, IMBA chapter leader, and riding instructor I've seen all this at scale. Mountain bikes are consumables if you're an avid rider. That's why I seek the value of OEM parts and don't spend too much on things that break often or wear out in only a few years.