Neck woods other than mahogany

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Otterhound

In what way is the Fender bolt on neck design an inherently flawed design ?

Maybe flawed if not implemented correctly. Which in my view would include the complete sealing of the wood especially all end grain, and especially at the heel and where the trussrod bolt is. There is that issue of the flange on the body, though us Fender guys learn to play around that.

Leo's first "electric Spanish guitars" had no trussrod. Which he ended up correcting pretty soon after. But he was an amp guy who designed a guitar that can be amplified without feedback. And that neck heel on the Strat, with its 5" radius end with 1/4" radius fillets on each corner, and 2-3/16" heel width (I memorized these because I've drawn them countless time in CAD), is the standard by which most all modern necks are based. So flawed or not, we love it... Heck, I'm a bit flawed myself, but my wife still loves me!

[Quickstep192]

I think flat sawn wood gets a bad rap, because much of what is bought as lumber has a lot of grain runout. Quartersawn when cut well tends to have little runout.

One of the things that I find attractive about the multi-piece neck is that you can take a piece of rift sawn wood, cut it in half, flip it and end up with with mirror image grain that helps it resist twisting.

(Like in the sketch)

[printer2]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

Agree 100%. Though, maple trees do not always grow symmetrically, and the growth "rings" can vary in curvature along the ring. So unless one was actually the sawyer of said log, it may not always be accurate to determine the location of cut simply by looking at the grain lines.

But yes, I've owned, played, and made necks with flatsawn wood - quilted and birdseye maple in particular, because that's obviously the cut where these figuring occur. But if I wanted to make a neck in the best way I know how (and the nicest looking in my opinion) I would personally choose a quartersawn billet all day.

Not looking to make the best neck that I can, the original question is so I can build inexpensive (but solid wood) starter guitars for kids. For my best builds (still a few years off) I have some Honduran Mahogany.

[printer2]

Originally Posted by Quickstep192

I think flat sawn wood gets a bad rap, because much of what is bought as lumber has a lot of grain runout. Quartersawn when cut well tends to have little runout.

One of the things that I find attractive about the multi-piece neck is that you can take a piece of rift sawn wood, cut it in half, flip it and end up with with mirror image grain that helps it resist twisting.

(Like in the sketch)

I have done necks with the wood grain as shown and found the better arrangement is with the shown pieces swapped so the quartered edge is facing out not the flat grain as shown. It also makes it easier to shape. Mind you the grain in the picture is not really quartered.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by printer2

Not looking to make the best neck that I can, the original question is so I can build inexpensive (but solid wood) starter guitars for kids. For my best builds (still a few years off) I have some Honduran Mahogany.

There was nothing in your OP about starter guitars for kids. But like I said, you can laminate flatsawn wood (which would be cheaper if a supplier sorted them by cut) to get a quartersawn blank, even using contrasting woods. Allowing you to use scrap, drop-offs, and other pieces that would not be suitable for a neck otherwise. For the same way some builders make 4-piece tops.

Then again if you were to make these guitars inexpensively, making them by hand seems to contradict that notion unless the goal is to give your services inexpensively, since there's some labor involved. And if take no regard to grain direction, that labor goes up significantly.


Speaking of inexpensive, I purchased some very inexpensive semi-finished 14-fret neck blanks second-hand that Martin had sold as seconds for something like $20 each. The headplates are already laminated and the holes drilled. Volute and heel are carved, and the tenon is machined. They just need trussrod and fretboard. The 12-fret slot head necks cost me a bit more. But I got them for the same reason - to provide inexpensive alternatives. A semi-finished blank from the lutherie suppliers goes for something like $150-170. The blems on these are not bad at all, some would sand off, some to me are more "character" marks.

[Otterhound]

Originally Posted by printer2

I have done necks with the wood grain as shown and found the better arrangement is with the shown pieces swapped so the quartered edge is facing out not the flat grain as shown. It also makes it easier to shape. Mind you the grain in the picture is not really quartered.

Your comment about the wood shown not being quartered raises a somewhat silly but important issue .
Rift sawn has different meanings in certain places and groups of people .
To some , rift sawn is a process and not a finished product . To others it is a finished product but not a process .
To some , the finished product is truly quarter sawn but to others it is not .
I raise this here and now because the post containing the drawing that you reference is that the OP calls it rift sawn and clearly does not imply quartersawn . At least , that is what the drawing indicates in context with the written portion .
Of course , I may be misinterpreting the idea that the OP did not imply or mean quartersawn .

[redir]

Fender necks would be better if they were true bolt on designs rather than the screws which wiggle loose and enlarge the holes. When you think about it, string tension wants to shove the neck into the back of the neck pockets so those screws have a shear force on them which acts out on the wood in the neck. Many times you have to fix screw holes because of that. Sometimes you can just harden them up with CA or fill them with a toothpick. Threaded inserts and true bolts would be better. BUt for the most part it still works.

[Quickstep192]

Originally Posted by Otterhound

Your comment about the wood shown not being quartered raises a somewhat silly but important issue .
Rift sawn has different meanings in certain places and groups of people .
To some , rift sawn is a process and not a finished product . To others it is a finished product but not a process .
To some , the finished product is truly quarter sawn but to others it is not .
I raise this here and now because the post containing the drawing that you reference is that the OP calls it rift sawn and clearly does not imply quartersawn . At least , that is what the drawing indicates in context with the written portion .
Of course , I may be misinterpreting the idea that the OP did not imply or mean quartersawn .

Your interpretation of my post is spot on. I meant to suggest that board used to make the neck was rift sawn which to me means that the grain in the wood has an angle relative to the surface somewhere between that of quartersawn and flatsawn. While I can see how one could take rift sawn wood and re-align it so that the grain would be the same as quartersawn after shapeing, that wasn't my intention. I was really just wanting to point out how the angles of the grain offset one another after you re-saw the board and bookmatch it.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by printer2

I have done necks with the wood grain as shown and found the better arrangement is with the shown pieces swapped so the quartered edge is facing out not the flat grain as shown. It also makes it easier to shape. Mind you the grain in the picture is not really quartered.

It deends... If the board has birdseye or quilt, then quickstep's way would expose the most figure. With curl or fiddleback, it could work either way though in that cas I too would prefer the orientation you describe.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by redir

Fender necks would be better if they were true bolt on designs rather than the screws which wiggle loose and enlarge the holes. When you think about it, string tension wants to shove the neck into the back of the neck pockets so those screws have a shear force on them which acts out on the wood in the neck. Many times you have to fix screw holes because of that. Sometimes you can just harden them up with CA or fill them with a toothpick. Threaded inserts and true bolts would be better. BUt for the most part it still works.

Yes...though even if inserts are used, you would still use screes not bolts - in that case, flat head machine screws. With today's technology and knowledge, the tolerances on the interface can be so tight that only one screw is necessary, like the Taylor T5 deaign with its interference fit, or Tom Andrrson's more recent trapezoidal heel.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by redir

Fender necks would be better if they were true bolt on designs rather than the screws which wiggle loose and enlarge the holes. When you think about it, string tension wants to shove the neck into the back of the neck pockets so those screws have a shear force on them which acts out on the wood in the neck. Many times you have to fix screw holes because of that. Sometimes you can just harden them up with CA or fill them with a toothpick. Threaded inserts and true bolts would be better. BUt for the most part it still works.

Only if they are not tight enough. They should be tight enough that the friction between the neck and pocket carries all the shear. But then, you are dealing with threading into wood, which does limit how much they can be tightened.

Another alternative is the neck could be bottomed in the pocket to change the shear in the bolts to compression between the neck and pocket. Any of them will work.

[redir]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

Only if they are not tight enough. They should be tight enough that the friction between the neck and pocket carries all the shear. But then, you are dealing with threading into wood, which does limit how much they can be tightened.

Another alternative is the neck could be bottomed in the pocket to change the shear in the bolts to compression between the neck and pocket. Any of them will work.

So if properly tightened the friction created by the wood/wood contact of the neck and the pocket is enough? Is that the way it works? I'm not an engineer

[printer2]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

Then again if you were to make these guitars inexpensively, making them by hand seems to contradict that notion unless the goal is to give your services inexpensively, since there's some labor involved. And if take no regard to grain direction, that labor goes up significantly.

I missed out on learning to play a guitar when I was a kid and want to give some kids the chance I never had. I do not mind taking a little bit of a loss doing it but would like to keep it to a minimum. I have found I can make a reasonable nylon instrument out of a good 2"x4" and some spruce/pine for the body. I would like to make some 0 sized guitars with steel strings as a step up from the spruce guitars. I have collected a fair amount of straight grained maple for necks and will probably buy maple b&s's to go with it, no quartered maple around here to resaw.

On occasion the lumberyard does get in other woods that is of good enough quality, like the African mahogany or the Spanish cedar. I was hoping to get a feel for other woods to work with, I have more than enough maple. I can see giving my time away as I will be retired and I do not need to supplement my income. I also do not want to step on the toes of the few luthiers that build in the area competing for the same customers. The people I expect to build for would likely not have a guitar hand built for themselves. I do want to build some instruments that approach the eye candy appeal of some of the guitars here but generally I want to make an affordable guitar for those who would appreciate it more.

[Rodger Knox]

Originally Posted by redir

So if properly tightened the friction created by the wood/wood contact of the neck and the pocket is enough? Is that the way it works? I'm not an engineer

That's the way it's designed when bolting steel plates together, I'd have to do the math to verify that it is the same with wood and screws.
My experience tells me that even if the holes are oversized and the screws have room to move around, the neck doesn't move if they are tight enough.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by Rodger Knox

That's the way it's designed when bolting steel plates together, I'd have to do the math to verify that it is the same with wood and screws.
My experience tells me that even if the holes are oversized and the screws have room to move around, the neck doesn't move if they are tight enough.

Back in the day we used sanding mesh as shims in the neck pocket, and to prevent shifting as well. Even actually tighten a neck, and pull the headstock either up or down to adjust for misaligned strings... There's a lot of leverage that can be produced, even when the bolts are cranked.