The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 10-03-2018, 09:23 AM
SprintBob's Avatar
SprintBob SprintBob is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 5,253
Default

A good read is bassist Victor Wooten's The Music Lesson. I'm listening to it right now in audio book form. It's very thought provoking for how you need to approach playing and enjoying music and putting "practice" in the proper context to maximize your experience and the joy of being a musician.
__________________
Doerr Trinity 12 Fret 00 (Lutz/Maple)
Edwinson Zephyr 13 Fret 00 (Adi/Coco)
Froggy Bottom H-12 (Adi/EIR)
Kostal 12 Fret OMC (German Spruce/Koa)
Rainsong APSE 12 Fret (Carbon Fiber)
Taylor 812ce-N 12 fret (Sitka/EIR Nylon)
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 10-03-2018, 10:20 AM
JerryM JerryM is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Oregon
Posts: 986
Default

Mentioning Molley Tuttle, Billy Strings,, people like Bryan Sutton and other Bluegrass flat pickers, that is a whole world of playing that takes many years to develop. Right hand being the primary driver, hours of pick technique practice as it is a fast specialized form of music.
I have been playing strictly fiddle tunes now for about 8yrs. and practice on most days about 4 hrs. and some more, just now starting to get proficient at right hand movement and cross picking. Also the tempos in BG are killer, I practice everything at 120 bpm once I have the moves down and figured out for a tune and then it generally takes me a month or more to get totally comfortable with it. Lots of work for sure but I have found practice needs to be just that, working on particular areas, cleaning up areas where you tend to stumble in tunes, reading charts, right hand exercises , etc. Then after a few hours I go to playing tunes at tempo, having about 150 now different ones each day rotating thru a list so I don't forget some. Then getting into jams at festivals and doing solo with vocals.
I think what many miss when they see people perform is the previous life spent with the instrument for hours and hours, even with great talent there is still work to be done! JMO
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 10-03-2018, 11:09 AM
Toby Walker's Avatar
Toby Walker Toby Walker is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Stationary home in NJ. Mobile home on any given highway.
Posts: 9,083
Default

A person without much talent can put in hundreds, if not thousands of hours but in the end, the music won't be as moving compared to a person with talent who put in the same amount of time. Keep in mind that total immersion - meaning listening, performing, learning, steadfast devotion, even sacrifice to a certain degree, and a proper mindset - is vitally important. At least it is to me.

Basically, it boils down to this: talent + practice + total immersion = a great performance.
__________________
Fingerpicking Acoustic Blues/Rag/Folk/Slide Lessons
https://www.tobywalkerslessons.com/
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 10-03-2018, 11:33 AM
michaelnel michaelnel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Avery, California
Posts: 271
Default

One tip I heard and believe in... when you practice, spend most of your time practicing what you DON'T know and what you DON'T do well.

Sure, spend some time on the stuff you know too, but working on what you don't do well is most productive for me.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 10-03-2018, 11:34 AM
phcorrigan phcorrigan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 2,415
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Couple of observations. There have been a number of excellent replies so I will basically recap



First: Like most adages "Practice makes perfect" while holding a spark of truth, is at the same time also is so simplistic and subject to a number of variables as be fairly useless in terms of specifics and method.

Second : one would have to define " great" because the answer to is Yes, and No, and maybe, and maybe not.

Also the notion of 10,000 hours of practice to master something, is much the same Yes, No , Maybe , Maybe not. As well as being fundamentally flawed.
Because the number of hours of practice or the time frame, is irrelevant.
It is the number of correct repetitions that makes for productive practice .
It is the number of correct repetitions that converts conscious muscle movement into subconscious muscle memory, which also varies greatly per individual and per the complexity and difficulty of the movement itself .

When the movements have been converted into memory that is when the creativity can really begin .

Depending on definition, the great ones have both practiced enough to be at muscle memory, and have the creative talent to move it to the next level.
"For every difficult and complex question there is an answer that is simple, easily understood and wrong."
H.L. Mencken
__________________
Patrick

2012 Martin HD-28V
1984 Martin Shenandoah D-2832
2018 Gretsch G5420TG
Oscar Schmidt Autoharp, unknown vintage
ToneDexter
Bugera V22 Infinium
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 10-03-2018, 11:36 AM
phcorrigan phcorrigan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 2,415
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by menhir View Post
I'll jump on the "Perfect Practice makes Perfect" wagon.

For me, the purchase of an acoustic amplifier made this painfully plain and clear...I was letting a lot of little fluffs go by that were unobtrusive while playing unplugged in my easy chair.
They became depressingly obvious when amplified.
It was a humbling experience and a real eye(ear)-opener.
IMO, recording yourself is even better for this.
__________________
Patrick

2012 Martin HD-28V
1984 Martin Shenandoah D-2832
2018 Gretsch G5420TG
Oscar Schmidt Autoharp, unknown vintage
ToneDexter
Bugera V22 Infinium
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 10-03-2018, 11:44 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Coastal Washington State
Posts: 44,927
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Walker View Post
A person without much talent can put in hundreds, if not thousands of hours but in the end, the music won't be as moving compared to a person with talent who put in the same amount of time. Keep in mind that total immersion - meaning listening, performing, learning, steadfast devotion, even sacrifice to a certain degree, and a proper mindset - is vitally important. At least it is to me.

Basically, it boils down to this: talent + practice + total immersion = a great performance.
I 100% agree with Toby here^^^!

Any of us will be better than we are with more practice. But it's not all there is in becoming a really good player.

I play a lot, I practice a lot. I live my life immersed in music, even though I have made my living as an engineer. As a guitar player, I am probably better than some, but definitely not as good as so many great players whose music I admire, including Toby.

The thing that keeps me going is my love of music.

- Glenn
__________________
My You Tube Channel
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 10-03-2018, 12:04 PM
ylekot ylekot is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 118
Default

I guess I'll just quit then......
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 10-03-2018, 12:33 PM
Woolbury Woolbury is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Evergreen,CO
Posts: 619
Default

Just asking the question implies the answer. Of course there's more to it than practice. Everybody has unique abilities and a unique voice. Part of becoming a great guitar player is learning how to master the mechanics, part is learning to find your voice. Ultimately we want to express emotion, that is a combination of masterful playing and self expression. Ive wandered in the forest for many years before realizing where I really want to go with my music. Finally I'm at the base of a great mountain that I want to climb, and I get a little higher each day.
__________________
'19 Waterloo WL-14X
'46 Gibson LG2
'59 Gibson ES125T
'95 Collings 0002H
'80s Martin M36
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 10-03-2018, 12:41 PM
michaelnel michaelnel is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Avery, California
Posts: 271
Default

I find that practicing with a metronome helps a lot too. I try to play stuff no faster than I can play it without making mistakes.

If I make mistakes at 80bpm, I will drop it to 60bpm. If I can then play it correctly at 60bpm, I will bump it up to 65bpm.

I will keep working my way up in steps and not advancing the speed until I can play it correctly at whatever speed I am currently using.

This has the side effect of helping me improve my timing.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 10-03-2018, 12:48 PM
Arthur Blake Arthur Blake is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,025
Default

One of my favorite things is finding a better way to do something on guitar, better tone, better fingering, more understanding of the musical structure to better remember.

The amazing thing is that I keep finding ways to progress and learn.

I do a lot of practicing, interspersed with playing. I think it is impossible to improve without practice, but not sure about ever reaching perfection. I think perfection in music is being completely immersed in the moment, and giving the music expression without impedance from lack of inspiration or technique.
__________________
Martin OM-18 Authentic 1933 VTS (2016)
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 10-03-2018, 01:22 PM
min7b5's Avatar
min7b5 min7b5 is offline
Eric Skye
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 7,668
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitar george View Post
There is an old saying that "Practice makes perfect" which is intended to mean that if you practice something over and over enough times you will eventually be able to do it perfectly. Is a lot of practice all that's needed to become a great guitar player?
I don't know about "perfect," but yes, to be a great player, or great at anything, yes, a LOT of practice. What I hate about the talent myth is for someone like me, that doesn't think of myself as great, but has dedicated their whole life to it, the idea that it's just something you're born with, is almost insulting.

Now I'm not saying that if you're six foot seven, or five foot tall, you can practice your way into being a professional jockey or NBA star. And I recognize that some players that have, say, incredible speed are born with faster twitching muscle fibers and nervous systems. And maybe zen-like players like Bill Frisell were raised in homes that set the stage for more introspection, etc. But if you look under the hood of all great players you find that they at least went through a period (and for many it's life-long) of total immersion. Eight to ten or more hours a day of working on music, listening, talking about, teaching, recording, writing... All the things that go into it. Just like anything else.

If an adult student comes in and asks how much time they should put in a day to get truly great at playing jazz, I always ask what they do. And if they say they're, say, a lawyer, I'll joking ask if I start right now and put in an hour a day into law how long before I can try a big case for a big firm? Whatever the answer is I'll say that about what it'll take before you can lead a trio of the best players in the city through a string of three-hour jazz club dates. But the paycheck is little different though!

Of course people like to site examples of the twelve year old monster player. I know those kids, I've been the teacher to kids like that. They just put in the time early, and in concentrated form. A kid playing twelve to sixteen hours a day for one summer will speed right past a thirty year old that has played an hour so a day for a decade and a half.

I'm not saying everyone should do that at all. Just making the long-winded point that yes, it's about the time put in, not something in the water. It's very nice to say to an artist that they're "gifted," but I think many think to themselves, as they look back on all the work it took to get there, that is was no gift at all -it was not given to them.
__________________
Instruction
Youtube
Instagram

Last edited by min7b5; 10-03-2018 at 01:33 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 10-03-2018, 01:33 PM
phcorrigan phcorrigan is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 2,415
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by min7b5 View Post
I don't know about "perfect," but yes, to be a great player, or great at anything, yes, a lot of practice. What I hate about the talent myth is for someone like me that doesn't think of myself as great, but has dedicated their whole life to it, the idea that it's just something you're born with, is almost insulting.

Now I'm not saying that if you're six foot seven, or five foot tall, you can practice your way into being a professional jockey or NBA star. And I recognize that some players that have, say, incredible speed are born with faster twitching muscle fibers and nervous systems. And maybe zen-like players like Bill Frisell were raised in homes that set the stage for more introspection, etc. But if you look under the hood of all great players you find that they at least went through a period (and for many it's life-long) of total immersion. Eight to ten or more hours a day or working on music, listening, talking about, teaching, recording, writing... All the things that go into it. Just like anything else.

If an adult student comes in and asks how much time they should put in a day to get truly great at playing jazz, I always ask what they do. And if they say they're, say, a lawyer, I'll joking ask if I start right now and put in an hour a day into law how long before I can try a big case for a big firm? Whatever the answer is I'll say that about what it'll take before you can lead a trio of the best players in the city through a string of three-hour jazz club dates. Pay check is little different though! Of course people like to site examples of the twelve year old monster player. I know those kids, I've been the teacher to kids like that. They just put in the time early. A kid playing twelve hours to sixteen hours a day for one summer will speed right past a thirty year old that has played an hour so a day for a decade and a half.

I'm not saying everyone should do that at all. Just making th long-winded point that yes, it's about the time put in, not something in the water. It's very nice to say to an artist that they're "gifted," but I think many think to themselves as they look back on all the work it took to get there that is was no gift at all.
This forum really needs a "Like" button!
__________________
Patrick

2012 Martin HD-28V
1984 Martin Shenandoah D-2832
2018 Gretsch G5420TG
Oscar Schmidt Autoharp, unknown vintage
ToneDexter
Bugera V22 Infinium
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 10-03-2018, 01:48 PM
Johnny K Johnny K is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Maryland
Posts: 944
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SprintBob View Post
A good read is bassist Victor Wooten's The Music Lesson. I'm listening to it right now in audio book form. It's very thought provoking for how you need to approach playing and enjoying music and putting "practice" in the proper context to maximize your experience and the joy of being a musician.
I have that audio book in my cue. im looking forward to listening to it.

Last week I watched a series of clinic videos from YouTube drum instructor Mike Johnston. In these series of videos he outlines a 4 stage practice method that makes a lot of sense to me. I am giving this a whirl, by implementing this in my guitar and drum practices.

Stage 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5li8JPkQU0
Stage 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq9fqbxGLPc
Stage 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWiXiHte_04
Stage 4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ahnHEOz_cc

Sorry it's not guitars, but it is relevant to the topic.

(If the mods want to kick it out, I'm OK with that)
__________________
Just an old drum playing guitarist now.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 10-04-2018, 02:02 AM
FThomas FThomas is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Philippines
Posts: 109
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitar george View Post
There is an old saying that "Practice makes perfect" which is intended to mean that if you practice something over and over enough times you will eventually be able to do it perfectly. Is a lot of practice all that's needed to become a great guitar player?
I'm reading "The Musician's Way: A Guide to Practice, Performance, and Wellness" by Gerald Klickstein and wanted to share this quote with you.

"practice is the deliberate, creative process of improving musical ability and of mastering music for performance."
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=