Unappealing Qualities of Open C Chord?

[lovgren]

This has been on my mind for about 12 months... Does anyone else find the open position C chord to have some internal dissonance or mud that causes it to sound unappealing? Maybe because it's primarily built from mid-tones + harmonics that step on each other?

When I play a G chord, I typically mute the A string (B note) to remove the low 3rd. This cleans up the chord and it rings beautifully. If I were to try the same concept with the C chord, it would be without a 3rd unless I play the high e which I don't think is helpful. I don't typically attempt to mute the high e but I also don't really hit it either. It just sort of sympathetically contributes.

[BFD]

I assume maybe you're talking about just straight strumming?

In terms of Carter-style picking and flat & cross-picking & fingerstyle, playing out of open C position (regardless of where the capo is or isn't) is among the most versatile positions for old-time, country, bluegrass, country blues and other fingerstyles.

[rick-slo]

I assume you leave out the sixth string (low G) on the C chord strum.

An open G chord is spread out over two octaves. The C strum is more compact
-leaving out the sixth string it is spread over an octave plus a third. Maybe that
is why it sounds more muddy to you. To me on my guitars the open C chord
sounds clean.

[Nymuso]

After fifty years of playing, this is the first I'm hearing of this.

I suspect what's unique about the C chord X32010 is that it's the only first position major chord with no skipped elements. If you start with the low C, you've got 1 - 3 - 5 - 1 - 3. When I include the 6th string, which is often, I finger a G on the 3rd fret to start off the chord with a 5. I only use the open 6th string for effect, ie, if I intentionally want to lead with the 3.

In short, I find no inherent dissonance with the C chord in the first position. Check your tuning.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by lovgren

This has been on my mind for about 12 months... Does anyone else find the open position C chord to have some internal dissonance or mud that causes it to sound unappealing? Maybe because it's primarily built from mid-tones + harmonics that step on each other?

When I play a G chord, I typically mute the A string (B note) to remove the low 3rd. This cleans up the chord and it rings beautifully. If I were to try the same concept with the C chord, it would be without a 3rd unless I play the high e which I don't think is helpful. I don't typically attempt to mute the high e but I also don't really hit it either. It just sort of sympathetically contributes.

It's true that the lower an interval is played the muddier it sounds. That's why the theory of harmony advises wide intervals in the bass (a 5th or more) with narrower intervals acceptable higher up.

The G chord shape offends more in this way than a C, but the low 3rd interval of a C chord (x-3-2-x-x-x) is still below middle C, so would be borderline. It doesn't bother me personally, but I do know what you mean.

It's related to the harmonic series, as you're guessing, and also to equal temperament (the reference for our tuning system, and how guitar tuners are calibrated).

So - if your guitar really is in tune (ie according to a tuner) - you could be more sensitive to clashing overtones than most of us.

However, it doesn't explain why playing the high E instead (which is included in the standard shape anyway) is not "helpful". That's equivalent to playing the B string in the G chord. I.e. a x-3-x-0-1-0 C chord is the exact same voicing as a 3-x-0-0-0-x G chord. (Of course adding the high G to the latter will "settle" it more.)

Now the science-y bit....

The offending overtones can be tested as follows: play a full G chord (3-2-0-0-0-3). While fretting the chord, play artificial harmonics on the 7th fret on both the 6th and 5th strings. This gives you the 5th harmonic of G and the 4th harmonic of B. If your guitar is absolutely in tune (according to a tuner), you should hear beats (throbbing) between the harmonics. Both harmonics are a B note, but the 6th string one is a little flat of the 5th string one. I.e., the 5th harmonic of G is a "pure" major 3rd, while the "tuned" (equal tempered) one is 14 cents sharp.
You should get the same discrepancy between the 5th harmonic of the G and the 12th fret harmonic of the B string (but not between the 4th harmonic of the B on 5th string and the B on 2nd string).

The same experiment should work on the 5th and 4th strings for a C chord (comparing 12th fret harmonic of top E).

If artificial harmonics are not in your skill set, you can test the "out-of-tune-ness" of the 5th harmonic, using a natural harmonic on fret 4 (or 9 or 16) of any open string. So if (say) your 6th string is exactly in tune, then your tuner will read the harmonic at frets 4, 9 or 16 as a slightly flat G#. (Tip - don't tune to this harmonic! )

Equal temperament, of course, is a compromise to allow us to play in all 12 keys equally, and we (or rather most of us) have come to ignore or accept the discrepancies from "pure" intonation (aka "just intonation").

[Ed-in-Ohio]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

I assume you leave out the sixth string (low G) on the C chord strum...snip...

I think the open C chord sounds fine, but I really like the fullness of the C/G.

Also, I think to ears brought up on rock-and-roll, the Cadd9 chord sounds "better" and more familiar than an open C.

[FwL]

Originally Posted by lovgren

This has been on my mind for about 12 months... Does anyone else find the open position C chord to have some internal dissonance or mud that causes it to sound unappealing? Maybe because it's primarily built from mid-tones + harmonics that step on each other?

When I play a G chord, I typically mute the A string (B note) to remove the low 3rd. This cleans up the chord and it rings beautifully. If I were to try the same concept with the C chord, it would be without a 3rd unless I play the high e which I don't think is helpful. I don't typically attempt to mute the high e but I also don't really hit it either. It just sort of sympathetically contributes.

You answered your own question. You don't like the sound of the root and major third together on the lower strings. One can hardly blame you it is an ugly interval. The major thrd is quite a bit sharp in equal tempered tuning and the lower you go with it, the uglier it gets.

.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Ed-in-Ohio

I think the open C chord sounds fine, but I really like the fullness of the C/G.

Also, I think to ears brought up on rock-and-roll, the Cadd9 chord sounds "better" and more familiar than an open C.

Cadd9 of course is a nice sound - "Yesterday" anyone!
I like having the G below the C for things like Travis style or bass line chord change walk ups or downs more than I do in basic strumming.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Cadd9 of course is a nice sound - "Yesterday" anyone!

You mean the Beatles one? Where's the Cadd9?

Originally Posted by rick-slo

I like having the G below the C for things like Travis style or bass line chord change walk ups or downs more than I do in basic strumming.

I like the C/G for the same reason, but also because (a) you can strum it without having to mute the 6th, and (b) it makes an easy change to and from G (assuming you play that with ring on 6th, as I do).

[lovgren]

Thank you all. At least it’s nice to know I’m not crazy for listening at this level of detail and pondering music theory plus the physical construction / limitations of our guitars.

I use a Peterson tuner and I tuned to the fretted notes this morning for one last test before posting. The notes are in tune, according to the tuner, as played. Guitars are Taylor 814ce and Gibson LG-2.

Now that I know there’s some science behind this, I’m going to do some experimentation. None of my listeners care. And when I’m playing with a band, I don’t really care either. But when playing alone or just with a singer, it irks me.

I think it’s that low major third interval.

[macmanmatty]

open C sounds ok to me (not any better than ok) but an open G chord sounds like a steaming pile of coyote turds with red stink fungus fruit growing out of them. But this due to equal temperament tuning and the more thirds a chord has and the lower they are the worse it sounds. Those darn piano players "Needing" their "equal temperament tuning" so they only have to have one piano to play all songs they royally screwed up modern music.

[stanron]

If you really want to get away from equal temperament then you should be playing one of the violin family in a string quartet. Then you can have just temperament all the time and in any key. Just as long as there is no piano playing, and no guitar.

The guitar is just as much an equal temp instrument as the piano. I don't mind the compromise. I do like the sweetness of sound a good string quartet can produce but I don't mind the guitar being slightly out of tune.

My musical education began in the early sixties. There were no digital tuners back then. Close enough was perfect. Listen to some live recordings from back then. They probably were not in tune by today's standards when they first went on stage. After a couple of numbers the tuning was not going to get better. To me that music still sounds great. Getting fixated on perfect tuning can lead you down a blind alley. I just tune to a digital tuner and try to concentrate on the bigger musical picture.

[Stomp]

Pedal steel guitar is one member of the guitar family which is not entirely hampered by Equal temperament and to a lesser extent, the Dobro/reso.

The Equally tempered major and minor thirds of regular guitar would very much grate on the ears with the long sustain of the pedal steel which is why psg is largely tuned to Just Intonation.

IMO, one of the reasons the "bad" thirds are tolerated on piano is their comparative brevity.

[mattbn73]

Yeah, I omit the third on the G chord in either the upper or lower octave always. For C, I breakup the lower C and E rhythmically, or de-emphasize one or the other. Most players deemphasize certain notes , probably mostly unconsciously . You wouldn't really know unless you analyzed it.

Something which hasn't been mentioned is the fact that voicings are very dependent on what kind of guitar you have (or SHOULD be imho). I don't play the same voicings on my Larivee' that I would on a Dreadnought. Certain ones are going to be muddy on a Dreadnought . And other voicings would sound really powerful in a Dreadnought don't have enough "ummphh" on flatter response guitars. They almost REQUIRE more dissonance.

[rick-slo]

All the chords sound good to me fingerstyle (Travis, arpeggios, etc.). Not much strumming chords.