I could use some help, please...

[WeddingGuy]

I made some recordings yesterday morning in my living room.

I'm using an AKG Perception 200 -- one each on the guitar and the cello -- and going into an Apogee Duet and then Garageband on a MacBookPro.

In the next couple days, I'm going to try again with different mic placement. Would you guys with good ears take a listen and let me know what I can improve upon. I'd love some input. I'd say I'm semi-pleased with the result, but not thoroughly. I hear a lot of room for improvement, but don't know where to start, exactly.

And let me say that, YES, money is an object. I really don't have much. I'm hoping to keep my expenditures down.

Thank you,
Kevin Riley

You've Got A Friend in Me
http://soundcloud.com/four-on-six/yo...friend-in-me-2

When I'm 64
http://soundcloud.com/four-on-six/when-im-64

[Ty Ford]

Hello Kevin,

Sounds a little etched on the high frequencies. The perception was one of those mics AKG made to compete in the lower end of the market. Bowed instruments can sound strident, even your classical sounds a bit edgy on my lap top. Try some eq in the master. Pull down around 5-6 Khz and see if it smoothes out.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by WeddingGuy

...In the next couple days, I'm going to try again with different mic placement.

Hi WG...

I like your interaction as players. I listened to all your posted samples. Were the others recorded with the same recording gear? Same location?

So please tell us about your living room (dimensions)... Is there furniture, hard surfaces, carpet, open (undraped) windows? Were the parts recorded simultaneously? If so, how were you guys postured compared to each other?

Where were you when you recorded? Middle of the room, near an edge or corner?

And how did you mic the instruments? Where were the mics aiming/pointing etc. And how far were the mics from each instrument?

If we know these things, perhaps we can make some meaningful suggestions.

Thanks...

[moon]

This is great I hope you keep working on it.

As mentioned, room acoustics can have a big impact. DIY acoustic panels aren't too expensive to make though. Can you hear a ringing sound when you clap your hands? You need to try and kill that by hanging panels on walls and ceiling. In general, diffuse, slow-returning, "airy" reflections can add a nice natural ambience, but anything which focuses the reflected sound is bad. At a minimum you should lean a couple of panels up against any nearby walls to kill some direct reflections. Low-frequency standing waves are pretty much guaranteed to be present but your music isn't bass-heavy so you might not be too affected by that.

I think the music you're doing has to have a richness and depth of tone to really work. Partly because it's a sparse arrangement where the sound of individual instruments is to the fore rather than a big, multi-track blend of many voices, all supporting each other. It's the wit and subtlety in phrasing which will really make it, if you can capture that.

You can maybe make some improvements with the gear you've got - the Duet is certainly up to the task: good, clean pres and generally great audio quality - but you really need better mics. The musicianship demands it

Top-quality mics from Schoeps or Gefell (which unfortunately cost more than some cellos...), or maybe an AEA/royer ribbon, will do a much better job of capturing the rich sound you need. Try renting some time, if you can, maybe for a final take, once you've rehearsed a piece.

You could make a significant step up from the perception to an inexpensive mic like the ADK S7b. This has a slightly darker tone without being muddy or muffled, which could work really well to tame the screechiness which is always waiting in the wings with a bowed instrument like the cello.

Flat or slightly dark is also how I would normally want to record (steel strung) acoustic guitar, but I've no idea what works best with classical. Maybe the same, or maybe you have to be careful not to push the fat mids too much. Maybe a little added brightness helps with note definition. No idea.

[rick-slo]

It sounds very good IMO, very life like. It could just use a bit of a warm sounding reverb to add a little more body to the notes.

[WeddingGuy]

Thank you all for the excellent suggestions.
After doing some more reading/youtube watching, I have come to the same conclusion as Moon who suggested that we use better mics. I wonder if somebody could loan some...?

Anyway, Larry asked several very good questions:

Were the others recorded with the same recording gear? Same location?

If you listened to all of the recordings on my band page (or on Soundcloud), then you doubtless noticed that some were made with a steel string & others with a classical. The steel string recordings were made about 3 years ago in a small, commercial studio. The classical (nylon string) recordings were all made out the house. A couple on Soundcloud of solo guitar were made using a Zoom H2. Otherwise, in the living room.

You've Got a Friend, When I'm 64, Lucky, 3 l'il Birds, were recorded Tuesday morning at home.

So please tell us about your living room (dimensions)... Is there furniture, hard surfaces, carpet, open (undraped) windows?

Living room: 13'x20'. older home with 8' ceiling, hardwood floors. We've a hard-ish, jute rug on the floor; over-stuffed couch, loveseat, chair & ottoman, lots of books on one wall.
Next time, I'm going to try a configuration with making a baffle around the cello mic out of a blanket.

Were the parts recorded simultaneously? If so, how were you guys postured compared to each other? Where were you when you recorded? Middle of the room, near an edge or corner?

Yes, we recorded simultaneously. We faced each other about 10' feet apart. My wife was toward the center of the room, I was about 5' away from one corner (where the desk is so I could work the computer with one hand).



And how did you mic the instruments? Where were the mics aiming/pointing etc. And how far were the mics from each instrument?

The 'cello mic was in front of the instrument about 2.5' on a boom stand. My mic was about level with the guitar, about a foot in front of the 10th or 12th fret, and aimed back at the top/soundhole area.

After listening to my guitar (which is on the boomy side) more critically last night, I think I'm going to try moving the mic around the soundboard some more--out of line with the hole, but closer to the wood of the top.

So, Larry, thank you for the questions. I'd be happy to take any suggestions.
Let me know where the local AKG 414, Neumann, Schoeps co-operative is located :-)

[moon]

Originally Posted by WeddingGuy

I'm going to try a configuration with making a baffle around the cello mic out of a blanket.

Blankets won't achieve a lot I'm afraid. The only really effective sound absorber is high density mineral wool (and even then it doesn't provide a lot of resistance to low frequencies). Owens Corning 703 is a standard for this kind of thing, or Knauf RS60, depending what's available in your area. More info, and a demo, on AGF member Fran Guidry's blog.

After listening to my guitar (which is on the boomy side) more critically last night, I think I'm going to try moving the mic around the soundboard some more--out of line with the hole, but closer to the wood of the top.

Get to know your mic's proximity effect, and make sure that's not making things worse.

If the guitar is just boomy no matter what you try, you can apply some EQ at the mixing stage, in particular you can use a thing called a multi-band compressor to tune in to the problem frequency band and apply compression when it jumps over a certain threshold. That's the least intrusive way to do it which leaves as much of your natural tone untouched as possible.

I didn't realise you were recording acoustic as well as classical guitar. ADK do another inexpensive mic, the A6, which is good on acoustic. It's a natural-sounding mic which does a decent job of capturing transient detail without over-hyping anything. I've never tried it on cello or classical guitar, but a mic with these characteristics usually works quite well on most kinds of acoustic instruments.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by WeddingGuy

...So, Larry, thank you for the questions. I'd be happy to take any suggestions.

Hi w-guy...

I like recording in living rooms with solid floors and ceilings, and as long as you avoid being close to walls or corners, you will probably have enough absorption just from rugs and furniture. OK there are limits...a living room with a 20 foot ceiling, full glass walls and marble floors may need a bit of treating.

But many average living rooms work just fine if there is not a lot of street traffic.

Why try to dampen the room down? Unless you are getting weird reflections (and I heard no evidence of obnoxious reflecting in your two living room recordings), then I'd try other mic placements.

My thought with the guitar boominess was to back the mic away a bit from the guitar, and increase the input gain if you need to on the guitar mic. Being too close to a source is often a cause of that low-mid boominess and closer the mic, the more boomy it will sound.

Since you put a mic 2.5 feet from the cello, what would be the harm trying the guitar mic at the same distance? I realize the cello is louder, but that is what gain controls are for, right?

How did the studio you recorded the earlier pieces in mic you up? Is it something you can emulate?

Also when you finish your recording, since you have 2 tracks, how about trying to pan them hard left/right and see how that comes out, and then adjust them back toward center till you get a bit of the separation I hear on the recording "Be Thou My Vision" (my favorite on your page)?

One last thought, have you considered a coincident mic array (x/y) centered on both of you from 3 feet out and you sitting much closer to each other and facing the same direction? I like x/y arrays aimed at 90° or 120°.




You can do this technique with Large Diaphragms as well. And you don't have to have custom brackets...just put them on stands and align them.

Looking forward to your progress.

[WeddingGuy]

Well dern....

I've done a little testing. I spent several hours last night finding a better placement solution and now have been trying to upload samples for y'all onto Soundcloud, but my isp today is having issues and I haven't been able to upload. I'll keep trying.

[WeddingGuy]

OK, finally worked.

Here are two new tracks. Actually it's the same track EQ'd two slightly different ways.
I played around with mic placement relative to the guitar quite a bit last night, and also (but not as much) played with guitar location within the room.

My current thinking is that I'll try to get a good guitar sound first. Then I'll spend an evening with the cello (which is more difficult as then there's an actual person involved, as well :-) and then we'll try to put the two -- hopefully better-sounding -- results together.

I do think that a mic investment would be good, and also some good headphones. But, I'm in no position to drop that kind of $$ right now. :-(


http://soundcloud.com/four-on-six/th...r-of-the-cross

http://soundcloud.com/four-on-six/po...he-cross-mix-2

Please listen and any comments would be appreciated.
Thank you,

[WeddingGuy]

fwiw...

the mic placement that I ended up with has the mic about 1.5 feet in front of my bald forehead angled down towards the soundhole. I tried about 10 different locations last night and this seems to decrease boominess and increase string separation and definition.

[WeddingGuy]

...and I ment to comment to Moon: I did watch Fran Guidry's video regarding the sound baffling panels. I'd seen it a year or more ago, but forgotten about it, so thank you for the reminder. I think that would help tremendously--especially with the 'cello which generates such powerful sound waves striking the walls, I find. I think that might be the first place to spend money.

[WeddingGuy]

bump--just hoping to keep this near the top. Would still love some comments....

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi w-guy...
dampen the room down?






You can do this technique with Large Diaphragms as well. And you don't have to have custom brackets...just put them on stands and align them.

lj, you dampen with water. you damp acoustically.

this image shows the capsules not aligned. they should be tip to tip with the capsules aligned for the best results.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by WeddingGuy

bump--just hoping to keep this near the top. Would still love some comments....

I'm terrible at critiquing mixes and such, but I'm not hearing excessive room effects. I do prefer the guitar test track over the original sample.

You mention a problem with boominess - it's a common issue and one that can be addressed with EQ. 200 hz and below first, but if you find a strong resonance (say a 180 hz bump), then try subtracting a little at the first harmonic (double the frequency to 360 in this example).

My comments on the first mix would be to raise the level of the guitar and use a bit of panning to spread the two sources, I currently hear them both pretty close to center. A subtle touch of reverb would probably be a useful experiment.

I gather that you're now miking the instruments. Have you tried using a stereo array to mic the space instead? Either XY or ORTF would be fun to try. You'd then balance the guitar to cello by placement of the instruments.

Very enjoyable playing and arranging.

Oh, and when you're considering buying mics to improve your recording, have you seen Doug Young's comparison in this post: http://69.41.173.82/forums/showpost....0&postcount=32 ?

Fran