Pickup system for percussive play style

[Shrakx]

Hey everyone!

I'm looking to install a pickup system on one of my guitars to properly reproduce not only the acoustic tone, but also the percussions on the soundboard and the side wood.

My play style being very percussive: think Andy McKee or Antoine Dufour (but of course not nearly as good , I really need a nice reproduction of the percussions and can't seem to find an appropriate pickup.

The Taylor ES system is really lacking in that area, as you can barely hear the percussions (equiped on my 814ce). The L.R. Baggs Element Active VTC Pickup on my Breedlove is just not cutting it at all, even to nicely reproduce the acoustic tone.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

[wood nacho]

Here are some options you might want to consider.

K&K pure mini (Soundboard Transducer) - These pickups are glued on the inside of the guitar, directly to the soundboard. Very popular, picks up percussive sounds quite well. Used by many here on AGF. Also, pretty inexpensive at around $80. Installation can be pretty tricky if you've never installed one before. A preamp is not required with this pickup but it is usually recommended because it gives you more output and EQ options.
http://www.kksound.com/puremini.html

K&K Trinity (SBT + mic) - This is the same as the pure mini but it has the added benefit of a built in microphone. This gives a lot more clarity and 'air' to the sound. The mic helps add volume and clarity to any percussive sounds you make on your guitar. The microphone has to be used sparingly though because it can easily feedback. This system is used by many pros including Antoine Dufour, Andy Mckee, Don Ross etc. A preamp is required with this system (comes with one actually)
http://www.kksound.com/trinitywestern.html

JJB Prestige 330 - Exactly like the K&K PWM but cheaper. Doesn't come with an installation kit though.
http://www.jjb-electronics.com/Presitge.html

Trance Amulet-M (SBT) - This is much like the K&K/JJB in that it is glued to the bridgeplate and it picks up body percussion. This is an active system meaning that it comes with its own preamp which is installed inside the guitar. This was just released recently so there have not been many reviews but from what I understand it is more dynamic and is a bit more natural sounding that the K&K PWM.
http://www.tranceaudio.com/amuletm.html

Seymour Duncan Magmic (Soundhole Mag/Mic) - This a soundhole pickup with a microphone all in one. Magnetic pickups have a high volume-before-feedback, and a great bassy low end, but do not pickup any percussive sounds. The mic can be left out or blended in to pickup percussive sounds. Once again though, the mic can feedback quite easily so be careful.
http://www.seymourduncan.com/acoustic/mag-mic.php

LR Baggs M80 (Soundhole Mag) - Similar to the SD Magmic but instead of a microphone, it pickups up the 'wood' of the guitar though a method that I don't really understand. (lol)
http://lrbaggs.com/m80/


What many folks do to get huge acoustic guitar sound is combine 2 different pickups. One popular setup is to use a magnetic pickup together with an SBT. The Magnetic pickups gives you a great feedback resistance and great low-end, while the SBT picks up the wood of the guitar and makes it sound more natural and picks up the percussive sounds too. This requires a blending preamp to get the two separate signals to combine into one mono signal.

You should check out Doug Young's pickup page. It has audio samples of all the pickups I've mentioned and many many more. Its a great resource. www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests

[Shrakx]

Thanks for all this information, hopefully I'll find what I'm looking for in there. Still new to all this and the pointers really help out a lot!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Shrakx

Thanks for all this information, hopefully I'll find what I'm looking for in there. Still new to all this and the pointers really help out a lot!

This is a case where it's reasonable to copy what someone else is using, with the idea that if it works for them, it will probably work for you. You want to sound like Antione, so start with what he uses: K&K minis+K&K Silver Bullet mic. You'll need some kind of blender, and I think Antoine also uses the K&K Quantum.

[Shrakx]

I actually already have a K&K Quantum that I bought second handed for a really nice price a few months ago.

So if I understand correctly, I only need to buy http://www.kksound.com/trinitywestern.html and that covers both the microphone that will pick the percussions and the 3 mini-pickups for the strings.

I also wouldn't need the 2 channel preamp that can come with it since I already have the Quantum?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Shrakx

I actually already have a K&K Quantum that I bought second handed for a really nice price a few months ago.

So if I understand correctly, I only need to buy http://www.kksound.com/trinitywestern.html and that covers both the microphone that will pick the percussions and the 3 mini-pickups for the strings.

I also wouldn't need the 2 channel preamp that can come with it since I already have the Quantum?

Hi Shrakx...

All you need is the Pure Western Mini and Internal Mic, not the full trinity rig including the belt-pack preamp.

Your Quantum is your preamp/blender, and you don't need the belt pack preamp which comes with the one you linked.

And the K&K Pure Western Mini and mic will both pick up percussive effects. The advantage of a blended system is each component emphasizes a different aspect of the tone and even the percussiveness.

I have 4 guitars with the K&K Dual source rig in them, and they are wonderful to work with, and while the sound is more natural, it is not a complicated system to get good live sound from.

[Shrakx]

So, I contacted my luthier to order the Pure Western Mini and Internal Mic, and then I realized that I was going to install it on my breedlove which has a JLD truss rod in the body.

You can find a picture of it here: http://www.stewmac.com/catalog/images_1lg/3694_1lg.jpg

Would that be a problem to install the Pure Western Mini or is there any kind of workaround possible?

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Shrakx

...Would that be a problem to install the Pure Western Mini or is there any kind of workaround possible?

Hi Shrakx…
They do need some adjustment...

There have been a couple discussions recently here about installing the K&K Pure Western Mini with the JDL BridgeDoctor. I bet K&K themselves would be able to advise you.

They are very good about responding via either phone or email.

[Doug Young]

Not to complicate things, but keep in mind that your whole system matters when it comes to amplifying a guitar. When I suggested that if you wanted to sound like Antoine, you might use the same pickup he uses, I ignored the fact that you have a *very* different guitar than Antoine. Breedloves, with the JLD are a pretty different animal. You may love the K&K on it, or it may sound very different. I don't have any better suggestion, but keep in mind that your results may vary.

[Shrakx]

I figured it was going to be pretty different. I'm also not opposed to installing it on my 814ce. It just feels wierd to throw away the ES... Apart that it doesn't pick up any percussive sound on the body, I still like the sound of the guitar plugged in.

I also find the ES to be really nice for a more traditional playstyle (fingerpicking, strumming etc...).

I guess I could have the K&K installed on top of the ES and use either or depending on what I'm playing... That seems like an overkill, though

[Shrakx]

I sent a quick e-mail to K&K and got a very fast reply (within the hour). That's what they recommended:

Yes you can install our Pure Mini in a guitar with the Bridgedoctor. The center transducer may either be placed just in front of the post (if there is enough room on the plate) or actually on the post (vertically) at the base. Both of these arrangements have been done and seem to produce a very acceptable result.

I'll most likely go with that option for now. I'll keep you guys posted on whether or not I end up liking the results!

[Shrakx]

Just a follow up on this thread: I just got my Breedlove back from a few days at the Luthier to get my new K&K Pure Western Mini installed. I just love it. The sound I'm getting doesn't even compare to the L.R. Baggs pickup I had on the guitar before.

Thanks again for all the input and pointers! It's greatly appreciated!

[Caravanman]

This is what I use which was prefitted in my Burguet classical guitar. It does the job fine. Once you get your settings to your liking that is.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Caravanman

This is what I use which was prefitted in my Burguet classical guitar. It does the job fine. Once you get your settings to your liking that is.

Hi C-man

Glad it's working well for you.

You are responding to a 5 year old thread…

[noledog]

Baggs M80 or DiMarzio Black Angel...simple and effective way to get you there with a bit time dialing them in without too much complication and both nearly pretty bullet proof. once dialed in, they sound fantastic and have better immediate response and better harmonics imo than SBT.