Rethinking setup after K&K install - EQ pedal options???

[Doug Young]

It's interesting that there seem to be 2 extremes on AGF, people who swear by a simple setup, like K&K+Red Eye, and those who seem to need lots of EQ. My experience is the former - a K&K right into an AER should sound pretty good, and the Red Eye with it's simple treble control takes it to the next level. I've never had to do all kinds of frequency cuts/boosts. Maybe I want a tad more bass, or a tad more treble, or a slight midrange cut, but that tends to be it. (I do find a high pass filter is really helpful, for that thump). Not sure why it varies so much, maybe those who need lots of EQ are just pickier. Stage volume may also come into play. Do you play especially loud, so that you're getting feedback and resonances at different frequencies?

My suspicion is that people who need a lot of complex EQ re trying to solve a problem that can't be solved by EQ - that fundamental "piezo pickup sound". The best solution I've found to date is the ToneDexter, which gets to the root problem. But even without it, K&Ks should work well with minimal EQ. Of course, there are so many variables.

[Jack Orion]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

It's interesting that there seem to be 2 extremes on AGF, people who swear by a simple setup, like K&K+Red Eye, and those who seem to need lots of EQ. My experience is the former - a K&K right into an AER should sound pretty good, and the Red Eye with it's simple treble control takes it to the next level. I've never had to do all kinds of frequency cuts/boosts. Maybe I want a tad more bass, or a tad more treble, or a slight midrange cut, but that tends to be it. (I do find a high pass filter is really helpful, for that thump). Not sure why it varies so much, maybe those who need lots of EQ are just pickier. Stage volume may also come into play. Do you play especially loud, so that you're getting feedback and resonances at different frequencies?

My suspicion is that people who need a lot of complex EQ re trying to solve a problem that can't be solved by EQ - that fundamental "piezo pickup sound". The best solution I've found to date is the ToneDexter, which gets to the root problem. But even without it, K&Ks should work well with minimal EQ. Of course, there are so many variables.

Yep and, to be honest, the K&K straight into the AER or Orchid into the desk does sound pretty good but, to my ear, the cuts I'm making remove some frequencies that I really don't like - perhaps they are the frequencies that are 'piezo-like' and the fact that I've previously loved the Anthem SL (which uses the mic for most of the signal over 250hz I believe) probably suggests I'm not a fan of those piezo tendencies.

I don't play loud if I can help it but I very rarely have much say in the room or stage sound beyond my own monitor mix unless I'm playing cafes/restaurants with my AER and sometimes that is only there as my monitor and therefore there are often times when it is louder than I would wish.

I think it also comes down a lot to style and one's own natural 'tone' - I tend to leave a lot of strings ringing in my own songs and once you add stage monitors, a responsive guitar and a more-feedback prone pickup to that style I think you're bound to run into resonant frequency issues and I think that is what my EQ search over the last few weeks has been about - those resonant frequencies are building up and giving me a lot of 'mud' and 'honk' in the sound, and these cuts are doing the trick I think in removing them.

I suppose it also depends on pickyness as well as one's own ears and sensitivity to tone and different frequencies - that's not to say I'm suggesting I have better 'ears' than anyone else (especially not you!) but perhaps I have a tendency to zone in on what I don't like about the tone more than some people? I am quite sensitive to harsh sounds and often I'll pick stuff out live and on records that other people can't hear so maybe my own ears and brain are tuned into those 'spikier' frequencies more than some others?

To be fair perhaps a much broader mid cut would do the job - I have no idea what the Q is on the AER mid control or the Orchid preamp and maybe something like the Grace preamps would tame all of the mids with a low Q and shallow cut, who knows?

[Doug Young]

To be clear, the only time I really like my amplified sound is when I get to play thru a great PA using a mic. Any pickup is always a compromise, so "good" is relative, and playing thru an amp is never very exciting. I've just never been able to improve the sound with micro-EQ, especially the sound out front to the audience, which I'm not really hearing. Even with just an amp, things can sound really different than they do up close to the amp. But it's definitely hard to play, or at least to enjoy it, when what you hear isn't right. I think where some people are always messing with EQ, I'm always trying and tweaking different pickups and so on, trying to get a match that sounds good in the guitar without a lot of EQ.

I probably missed this in the thread, but you like the Anthem (which I have heard sound really good), so why didn't you just stick with that?

[Jack Orion]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

To be clear, the only time I really like my amplified sound is when I get to play thru a great PA using a mic. Any pickup is always a compromise, so "good" is relative, and playing thru an amp is never very exciting. I've just never been able to improve the sound with micro-EQ, especially the sound out front to the audience, which I'm not really hearing. Even with just an amp, things can sound really different than they do up close to the amp. But it's definitely hard to play, or at least to enjoy it, when what you hear isn't right. I think where some people are always messing with EQ, I'm always trying and tweaking different pickups and so on, trying to get a match that sounds good in the guitar without a lot of EQ.

I probably missed this in the thread, but you like the Anthem (which I have heard sound really good), so why didn't you just stick with that?

The through saddle on the traditional Collings wouldn’t really work with the element unless you routed a channel for it.

And I know what you mean about being hard to play when you can’t wnjoy the time - the first few gigs with the k&k not only was I not enjoying the tone, but I was also quite anxious about low end feedback as it was on the edge a lot and it’s hard to focus on your performance when a part of your brain is elsewhere...

My favourite gigs are unplugged folk club gigs but I’ve not had too many of them of late - going to push hard for more next year though!

I think the matching the pickup to the guitar route is very valid and I think I’ve lucked out with my Martin and the anthem as, last weekend gig aside, they seem to be a very good match that’s works with minimal eq...

Other guitars have been more tricky, particularly as some of the options available in the states don’t seem to be over here in the U.K. at reasonable prices...

[dcopper]

I use all of my K&K guitars either straight into my amps (AER 60/3, Fishman LB amps, BOSE S1) or with a RedEye. I cut the bass along with some midcuts and use the treble control on the RedEye to get a bit more articulation. I find spending more time playing than fiddling works better for me.
The caveat to this is that I am not seeking the nirvana of acoustic tone, a quest that I leave to players who may have a better ear for it. I can say that I have never had anyone tell me my guitar tone stinks. I try to use dynamics in my playing and vocals, along with swapping out strumming for picking. Maybe varying my playing styles allows me to get away with simple tone.
In the end though, it is about bringing some new life to songs. I spent lots of time and money on gear and went from complex to simple in the end. I truly enjoy reading how other players compensate for amplifying their acoustics. Our OP is very knowledgeable and everyone here is fortunate to have Doug help us all out.
My guitars are dual pickups but most of the time I just go with the K&Ks. I like the thickness of the tone and the fact that they respond well to both strumming and picking styles.
Great thread-
davidc

[Jack Orion]

Originally Posted by dcopper

I use all of my K&K guitars either straight into my amps (AER 60/3, Fishman LB amps, BOSE S1) or with a RedEye. I cut the bass along with some midcuts and use the treble control on the RedEye to get a bit more articulation. I find spending more time playing than fiddling works better for me.
The caveat to this is that I am not seeking the nirvana of acoustic tone, a quest that I leave to players who may have a better ear for it. I can say that I have never had anyone tell me my guitar tone stinks. I try to use dynamics in my playing and vocals, along with swapping out strumming for picking. Maybe varying my playing styles allows me to get away with simple tone.
In the end though, it is about bringing some new life to songs. I spent lots of time and money on gear and went from complex to simple in the end. I truly enjoy reading how other players compensate for amplifying their acoustics. Our OP is very knowledgeable and everyone here is fortunate to have Doug help us all out.
My guitars are dual pickups but most of the time I just go with the K&Ks. I like the thickness of the tone and the fact that they respond well to both strumming and picking styles.
Great thread-
davidc

Some good advice here - more time playing than fiddling!

It's true, sometimes you get so caught up in the minutia of this or that tone that you forget about the playing!

I'm not seeking tonal nirvana either and I don't believe it is achievable unless you're in a mic'd listening situation with an excellent sound person, but what I do want is a sound that I like and that gives me the confidence to play to my best.

[dcopper]

Jack,
That is an excellent response - being comfortable with the tone that gives you the confidence to play at your best. There are so many variables that effect your sound from venue to venue and night to night. The first time I played out with my S1, the outdoor patio of a beach bar had three huge industrial fans. I started out with my guitar and vocals going through a VE8, then switched to plugging straight into the S1. Both were good but the whirring fans were out of my control.
It went fine because I had confidence in my own sound.
Best of luck and keep us all posted. A lot of us use K&K pickups and I for one have learned a great deal from this forum.
davidc

[Jack Orion]

ok, so I caved in and ordered a Felix... I found store in the UK that has a 7 day 'Try Before You Buy' option where they send you a demo unit and then, if you want to buy, the swap it out for a new one (which seems a little complicated to me and a bit unnecessary given my right to return under Distance Selling Regulations but whatever, at least this way I don't pay postage!) and it should be here on Friday morning.

Fingers crossed it turns up in time for me to have a little play and get to grips with it as I'm performing Friday evening and it'd be great to be able to try it out live during the trial period.

Since Doug's comments I've had a bit of a think and realised that the K&K does sound 'ok' with just the three band EQ from my Orchid if I do a big mid-scoop and then boost the highs and lows a bit to emphasise that scoop. I think I'll be able to do this with the Felix but also notch out 200 or 400 and I'll be there.

I also started to think about what he said about perhaps just not liking some characteristics of the K&K and I think what I'm missing is a bit of 'air' and 'openness' - I think the K&K sounds quite 'close' if that makes sense?

So, assuming that the Felix turns up and I like the EQ section, I'm going to look at some sort of internal mic for the Collings as well - currently watching a few DPA 4061 on eBay but I've noticed there's lots of these small Lav-style mics out there, Thomann even have one that's £33 new!

Do they all work in the same way? IE I could wire them to the ring on my K&K output and hit them with the 12v from the Felix?

Aside from the DPA (which, unfortunately doesn't seem to be available for much under £140 used in the UK) what other mics are good for this application? AKG? Audio Techinica?

[Jack Orion]

To be clear - I still think that it sounds better with some of the EQ scoops I've been making with my ParaEQs, but Doug's comments just made me reconsider the 'base' tone - rather than thinking 'can this be better?' i tried to think 'is this acceptable?' and it is acceptable going through the Orchid or the AER.

There's still a bit of undesirable-ness to my ear, but I realised in order to get rid of all of that I was also removing some good stuff too so I'm trying to change my mindset and be more like 'how can I work with this tone?' rather than 'this tone doesn't sound like that tone', if that makes sense?

I'm really hoping the Felix will give me an acceptable base tone for the K&K and I can gig with that for a while before investigating adding a mic to it - The Felix will give me two channels for my two guitars if I don't add a second source to the K&K anyway and, if I do, I'll just take my Orchid for the Martin/Anthem and request two XLRs to the desk...

Fingers crossed...

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Jack Orion

I also started to think about what he said about perhaps just not liking some characteristics of the K&K and I think what I'm missing is a bit of 'air' and 'openness' - I think the K&K sounds quite 'close' if that makes sense?

So, assuming that the Felix turns up and I like the EQ section, I'm going to look at some sort of internal mic for the Collings as well - currently watching a few DPA 4061 on eBay but I've noticed there's lots of these small Lav-style mics out there, Thomann even have one that's £33 new!

Do they all work in the same way? IE I could wire them to the ring on my K&K output and hit them with the 12v from the Felix?

Aside from the DPA (which, unfortunately doesn't seem to be available for much under £140 used in the UK) what other mics are good for this application? AKG? Audio Techinica?

I imagine you would like some "air" from a mic - you have that (sort of) with the Anthem, tho the Anthem mic is a bit different. I'm surprised you want to cut so much midrange. You play fingerstyle, right? Many fingerstyle players like the warm mids of the K&K. But regardless, you should be able to EQ it however you like with Felix, but your existing EQ should do the job (?).

As far as mics, just about anything *may* help. The K&K Silver Bullet would be the obvious choice with K&K, tho they reportedly have sort of crippled it recently so it won't work with anything but their preamps, which is unfortunate. I've used the DPA 4061, Sennheiser MKE2, and the Audix L5O. They all tend to work the same, solder to the ring, supply somewhere in the vicinity of 9-12 volts. There are a few wiring differences with some. The Audix has 3 wires, for example, and you have to solder one of them to ground in addition to the ground. These mics are all pretty good quality, and not cheap. I kind of like the Sennheiser the best of these. The Audix sounds really good, but it's very hot, I even have trouble turning it down enough with Felix. You could try cheaper mics - in my pickup tests, the "pickup" I often get the most questions about was just a radio shack electret, $19 or something like that. I've not tried pairing it with a pickup, but it would probably work. The bulk of your sound will come from the K&K, the mic just adds a little air, and you'll likely want to use the high-pass filter on Felix to cut out the low end anyway, to avoid feedback. So any traditional idea of a "good mic sound" is kind of out the window anyway, the mic alone probably won't sound all that good no matter what you use. It's just adding air and liveliness (as well as more feedback potential, unfortunately)

BTW, Felix's EQ section has several customizations, the midrange with side DIP switches, the bass frequencies in jumpers inside the unit. You may want to tweak these to match your needs.

[Jack Orion]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I imagine you would like some "air" from a mic - you have that (sort of) with the Anthem, tho the Anthem mic is a bit different. I'm surprised you want to cut so much midrange. You play fingerstyle, right? Many fingerstyle players like the warm mids of the K&K. But regardless, you should be able to EQ it however you like with Felix, but your existing EQ should do the job (?).

As far as mics, just about anything *may* help. The K&K Silver Bullet would be the obvious choice with K&K, tho they reportedly have sort of crippled it recently so it won't work with anything but their preamps, which is unfortunate. I've used the DPA 4061, Sennheiser MKE2, and the Audix L5O. They all tend to work the same, solder to the ring, supply somewhere in the vicinity of 9-12 volts. There are a few wiring differences with some. The Audix has 3 wires, for example, and you have to solder one of them to ground in addition to the ground. These mics are all pretty good quality, and not cheap. I kind of like the Sennheiser the best of these. The Audix sounds really good, but it's very hot, I even have trouble turning it down enough with Felix. You could try cheaper mics - in my pickup tests, the "pickup" I often get the most questions about was just a radio shack electret, $19 or something like that. I've not tried pairing it with a pickup, but it would probably work. The bulk of your sound will come from the K&K, the mic just adds a little air, and you'll likely want to use the high-pass filter on Felix to cut out the low end anyway, to avoid feedback. So any traditional idea of a "good mic sound" is kind of out the window anyway, the mic alone probably won't sound all that good no matter what you use. It's just adding air and liveliness (as well as more feedback potential, unfortunately)

BTW, Felix's EQ section has several customizations, the midrange with side DIP switches, the bass frequencies in jumpers inside the unit. You may want to tweak these to match your needs.

Yep the existing EQ can do the job but I keep blowing hot and cold on it!

Somedays I think it needs all this deep cuts, then I think actually it sounds alright flat, then it's 'well just 400hz helps' etc etc. I do tend to go through this with most gear where there's a period of chopping and changing before settling - the Anthem in my Martin has been the only thing ever where I've gone 'yep, finished!' particularly once I added the Orchid

I think it's the tweaker in me - I was the same when I played more electric guitar, if I had too many options I'd be constantly thinking 'maybe that sounds better? or maybe this sounds better?' constantly contradicting myself! In the end I had to make the decision that I wasn't going to look at every different overdrive pedal under the sun trying to find the perfect sound, I was just going to buy a TS808 and be done with it 'that's the sound I have, now play!' - there are times when I still don't get on with the TS808 as an overdrive for my electric, but I made a decision and 90% of the time it's fine.

So I'm trying to come round to that way of thinking regarding the K&K - it might not be perfect, but I've decided on it for the sake of convenience and availability, and now I need to get it to 90% of the time fine.

So my main issue has been the low end thump, a hot frequency of 200, and a midrange 'radio transmitter' sort-of honk that seems to exist around 800. Addressing those seems to address most of my problems, the rest I think is perhaps too much detail-searching with headphones on at home and not enough 'playing out' time.

My hope is that having the Felix set up with either a combo of the HPF and the 250hz bass control, or the notch and 125hz bass control (with a HPF on the desk) will allow me to get that thump and 200 area under control, and the mids should handle the 800 area fine.

I do play fingerstyle but I sing as well so I don't want a tone that is really thick - I do seem to dislike mids a tad but, like with my TS808/Princeton reverb setup, sometimes what sounds nice at home just sounds thin through a PA, so I'm accepting that perhaps some of the frequencies I'm cutting to get a pleasing sound at home are best left in in an amplified situation...

[SalFromChatham]

My guitars have K&Ks or Baggs soundhole pups.

I also wont tolerate setups that are too difficult, and I have experimented a fair amount. If I only gigged with my k&k equipped guitars (D18 and J50), Id still have my Red-Eye. IT was fantastic and simple. I actually should buy one again to have as a backup in my truck.

Anyways, I have a small pedal board setup so that it handles whatever setup I gig with. Tonight is a gig at the beach, so I dont want to take my nicer guitars. A Farida OT22 with a Baggs comes along. For my gig on SundaySunday, I will bring my D18. This pedal board handles both pretty well. TU3-W tuner. GE-7. HOF Reverb and Delay. Spark Boost for solos. The board tunes, mutes, EQ's, has nice effects... no batteries, power source underneath.

[Vancebo]

Originally Posted by Jack Orion

Yep the existing EQ can do the job but I keep blowing hot and cold on it!

Somedays I think it needs all this deep cuts, then I think actually it sounds alright flat, then it's 'well just 400hz helps' etc etc. I do tend to go through this with most gear where there's a period of chopping and changing before settling - the Anthem in my Martin has been the only thing ever where I've gone 'yep, finished!' particularly once I added the Orchid

I think it's the tweaker in me - I was the same when I played more electric guitar, if I had too many options I'd be constantly thinking 'maybe that sounds better? or maybe this sounds better?' constantly contradicting myself! In the end I had to make the decision that I wasn't going to look at every different overdrive pedal under the sun trying to find the perfect sound, I was just going to buy a TS808 and be done with it 'that's the sound I have, now play!' - there are times when I still don't get on with the TS808 as an overdrive for my electric, but I made a decision and 90% of the time it's fine.

So I'm trying to come round to that way of thinking regarding the K&K - it might not be perfect, but I've decided on it for the sake of convenience and availability, and now I need to get it to 90% of the time fine.

So my main issue has been the low end thump, a hot frequency of 200, and a midrange 'radio transmitter' sort-of honk that seems to exist around 800. Addressing those seems to address most of my problems, the rest I think is perhaps too much detail-searching with headphones on at home and not enough 'playing out' time.

My hope is that having the Felix set up with either a combo of the HPF and the 250hz bass control, or the notch and 125hz bass control (with a HPF on the desk) will allow me to get that thump and 200 area under control, and the mids should handle the 800 area fine.

I do play fingerstyle but I sing as well so I don't want a tone that is really thick - I do seem to dislike mids a tad but, like with my TS808/Princeton reverb setup, sometimes what sounds nice at home just sounds thin through a PA, so I'm accepting that perhaps some of the frequencies I'm cutting to get a pleasing sound at home are best left in in an amplified situation...

There were times I could have written this post. I used to always be fiddling with knobs to kill a certain frequency here and there. I could usually get there but then it would change . Temperature, humidity, and other natural phenomena have tonal effects on your guitar. When I owned a K&K, Lyric, ES2, Anthem Inreally has this problem. What I am saying is, I have felt your pain!

[gfirob]

This is a long thread so I can't remember if the OP has actually tried the Tonedexter or not, but at half the cost, it sure seems like a sensible alternative. I have never used a Felix, so I can't speak to which of the two delivers the magic sauce better, but after a lot of agonies in this area the Tonedexter and K&K's get me closer to what I want to sound like than anything else IMHO. Everything is a compromise so it comes down to which is the simplest and least painful compromise and for me it is the Tonedexter.

[lkingston]

My favorite EQ pedal by miles is the Tech21 Q\Strip. This is all analog, has two sweepable mid frequencies, high and low pass filters, and plenty of clean gain (and the right input impedance) for passive pickups.

This EQ pedal behaves exactly like the EQ on a vintage analog recording mixing console. You see this in two ways.

One: the sound without any frequencies boosted is very clean. When you boost a frequency really hard you get this gentle saturation that is just wonderful sounding. In the low frequencies, this saturation brings out sub bass harmonics that can do wonders for the basslines in fingerstyle jazz guitar.

Two: like on an analog console, as you boost or cut a frequency hard, the Q (the sharpness of the frequency curve) increase. With gentle cuts or boosts, the curve is broad and pleasant, but if you really need to cut a frequency hard to get rid of a feedback problem, it will do that too.