Still tripping over a chord after 40 years!

[capefisherman]

After teaching guitar for over 40 years I think I can help you a bit. In my experience with many, many hundreds of students I've found that with difficult chords (barre or not) it almost always comes down to what I call the "problem finger." It also has a lot to do with the particular chord sequence; a chord that may be just annoying in certain sequences is sometimes extremely difficult in another progression, relative to where your fingers are coming from.

But getting back to the "problem finger." I have seen students practice hard for long periods of time thinking that by pure repetition alone without thinking about just why a change is hard they eventually get that change. That may work, but on difficult changes the danger is that in a short amount of time you basically begin practicing your mistakes via muscle memory! So - take a look at what happens when you go to a difficult chord. Which finger is the LAST one you put down? THAT is the problem finger! It's human nature to do the easy stuff first. By forcing yourself to move the problem finger into a chord BEFORE the others, then filling in the chord will defeat the muscle memory.

In the short term you will probably find it actually takes a bit longer to make the change than your (bad) habit of "setting up" a chord. But by forcing the problem finger down first and then filling in the rest of the chord in a relatively short amount of time you will be able to get the chord down in its entirety. Understand that this is a gradual process; it won't be an absolute "AH HA! Now I have it" kind of thing. But you will see an ever-increasing rate of success.

With barre chords of course there are other physical factors like thumb placement relative to the barring finger, especially with full barre chords. The pad of the thumb MUST be centered behind the neck directly beneath the first finger on a full barre, which means you must drop your wrist and forearm and release the baseball bat grip that you may use on normal, 1st position non-barre chords. But that's a separate discussion!

Anyway, examine how you change into a difficult chord. What is the last finger you put down? (it's often the ring or 3rd finger, there is a reason for that too, yet another discussion....) Force yourself to place that "problem finger" down FIRST for a week or so, followed by filling in the rest of the chord. I can almost guarantee you'll see overall improvement with that annoying chord and sooner or later - probably sooner - you'll be able to place the fingers down all at once! Just practicing a chord over and over without trying to figure exactly why that chord is difficult hardly ever solves problem, all that does is reinforce bad habits.

Gene

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

Don't feel bad. I've played since 1962 and still can't manage a Dbm+sus8. If I knew where to put my fingers, I might do better. At least you don't have that problem.

That you would even conceive of a Dbm+sus8 before having trouble playing it tells me we’re in very very very different places as guitarists. I have no idea when or why I’d ever need to play a Dbm+sus8 - how to play it would be a totally academic question to me. A seriously first world problem!

-Ray

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by capefisherman

After teaching guitar for over 40 years I think I can help you a bit. In my experience with many, many hundreds of students I've found that with difficult chords (barre or not) it almost always comes down to what I call the "problem finger." ...... Which finger is the LAST one you put down? THAT is the problem finger! It's human nature to do the easy stuff first. By forcing yourself to move the problem finger into a chord BEFORE the others, then filling in the chord will defeat the muscle memory.

.......

Anyway, examine how you change into a difficult chord. What is the last finger you put down? (it's often the ring or 3rd finger, there is a reason for that too, yet another discussion....) Force yourself to place that "problem finger down FIRST for a week or so, followed by filling in the rest of the chord. I can almost guarantee you'll see overall improvement with that annoying chord and sooner or later - probably sooner - you'll be able to place the fingers down all at once! Just practicing a chord over and over without trying to figure exactly why that chord is difficult hardly ever solves problem, all that does is reinforce bad habits.

Gene

Gene, thank you so much for this reply. I’d sort of diagnosed that the reason I have trouble with this abbreviated barre but not the abbreviated “F” barre is that it brings the pinky into play in the initial chord shape. Most chords I play in that first “cowboy” area don’t, with the pinky only getting involved once the chord is formed to play suspensions, add a 7th, etc. And that it’s on one of the physically (not musically) highest strings of the chord, where it’s usually physically below the other fingers in the chord. But it never occurred to me to check out which finger is finding its landing spot last! I’m gonna start playing around with this today!

I don’t have this issue when I’m playing stuff that mostly involves full barre chords (mostly on electric, less than acoustic) but a transition from an open chords to a full barre chords does seem considerably quicker when the chord doesn’t involve my middle finger. Getting to the F#m or B, for example, are much easier for me than getting to the F# or Bm, all at the second fret. So maybe the pinky isn’t the problem?

In any case, you’ve given me some good ideas to try. Thanks so much, again!

Edit: Just spent about an hour at this. I quickly identified that the "problem finger" is actually the combination of ring finger and pinky that land on the G and D strings on the 4th fret. They land at the same time and are often either late or miss their targets by just enough to be a problem. I can already tell that by working on hitting these two spots first is gonna get me there, or much closer to there. And my guess is it won't take all that long. Just gotta thank you again for this advice Gene! I also tried a couple of the other "cheats" that have been suggested, like just playing the Am triad slid up two frets, muting the 1st and 5th string and playing the Bm7 instead. But I think the 4 string version of the barred Bm with the 5th repeated on the high E for some reason just makes the chord ring out a little sweeter. So I'm gonna get it.

I'd urge anyone who's having trouble with a particular chord take Gene's advice and give this a try...

-Ray

[rpguitar]

Originally Posted by raysachs

That you would even conceive of a Dbm+sus8...

Since the person who posted that didn't include a smiley, I have to chime in didactically and clarify that there is no such chord, so don't worry about not being able to play it.

The tone that's suspended (omitted) in a sus chord is the 3rd, which is replaced with either a 4th or a 2nd. So there is no such thing as a sus anything-else other than sus4 (typically written as simply sus) or sus2. The chord spelling can never be major or minor because the 3rd defines those qualities and it is omitted.

Now back to your B minor!

[The Bard Rocks]

Originally Posted by rpguitar

Since the person who posted that didn't include a smiley, I have to chime in didactically and clarify that there is no such chord, so don't worry about not being able to play it.

The tone that's suspended (omitted) in a sus chord is the 3rd, which is replaced with either a 4th or a 2nd. So there is no such thing as a sus anything-else other than sus4 (typically written as simply sus) or sus2. The chord spelling can never be major or minor because the 3rd defines those qualities and it is omitted.

Now back to your B minor!

No wonder I can't play it! (smiley - heck I can't even do those)

[zeeway]

Ray,

Thanks for this string of posts. I am not a great guitar player, and this string reminded me that we all use a few cheats. I saw a video of Tommy Emmanual in a Ted talk, in which he described that while he composed songs, he could not read music...in the conventional way. So we all have our limitations.

My main cheat is I cannot play a B chord as a baby barre two frets above an A (three fingers for me for an A). I play the F shape string at the seventh fret for a B...I just hope people think I am a cool guy playing up the neck. I guess I should have taken guitar lessons to eliminate my bad habits.

But for me a lot of the allure of the guitar is figuring out how to coax good sounds out of the darn thing. When I play bossa nova jazz chords (only a few), sometimes I just smile at just how beautiful they are.

Now I would agree, if I am playing something with a few Bm, Cm, C#m, Fm chords, I have to be ready...especially if I have a capo on there. But I do have a friend who is a good singer, but a struggling guitar player, who asked me the other day how to make a Bm...I just smiled and said it is easy...this is an Am, this is an A#m, and so this is a Bm. He just shook his head.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by rpguitar

Since the person who posted that didn't include a smiley, I have to chime in didactically and clarify that there is no such chord, so don't worry about not being able to play it.

The tone that's suspended (omitted) in a sus chord is the 3rd, which is replaced with either a 4th or a 2nd. So there is no such thing as a sus anything-else other than sus4 (typically written as simply sus) or sus2. The chord spelling can never be major or minor because the 3rd defines those qualities and it is omitted.

Now back to your B minor!

My middle name is hook, line, and sinker. So basically someone who knows a bit of music theory having a laugh at the expense of those of us who don't... Got it!

[619TF]

Originally Posted by guitar george

Thanks for the tips, 619TF. I have no idea what most of those chords are or what songs I would ever use them for. I think I'll just use alternative chords that I know and won't go to him as a guitar teacher.

Well that's certainly one approach. Personally I like the challenge that these types of things present and I seek out teachers like that. I'm not a pro and never will be so I look at it as an intellectual exercise combined with the satisfaction of being able to physically do something I couldn't do before...but maybe that's just me.

Whatever you decide I wish you luck and fun in your guitar playing experience.

[rpguitar]

Originally Posted by guitar george

Thanks for the tips, 619TF. I have no idea what most of those chords are or what songs I would ever use them for.

Maybe this teacher didn't explain it well, and just gave you a long sheet with a list of chords on it, which is understandably baffling. What's there is pretty basic though:

The sheet lists all 12 keys on the left, showing the relative major and minor names you can learn to pair them (first entry is C Major and A minor, which contain the same notes - they are relative keys).

The chords that follow on each line are all of the diatonic chords in the listed relative keys. That means they all use the notes in the keys with no accidentals. The notes in C Major/A minor are C, D, E, F, G, A, B - the ivories on the piano - nothing else. All the chords on the top line use only those notes.

A simple way to understand how to use this is that when someone says "let's play in the key of G," you'd be able to reference the chords on that respective line on the sheet and know which ones belong in the key of G.

Normally a basic lesson like this would list the chords in order of their pitches in the key, C, D, E, F... But this one takes a different approach which is a little confusing to explain so I won't muddy the waters. Your teacher needs to understand your level of skill and knowledge, and maybe that's not happening yet. But the material itself is not odd or complex; it just needs to be explained.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by zeeway

Ray,

Thanks for this string of posts. I am not a great guitar player, and this string reminded me that we all use a few cheats. I saw a video of Tommy Emmanual in a Ted talk, in which he described that while he composed songs, he could not read music...in the conventional way. So we all have our limitations.

My main cheat is I cannot play a B chord as a baby barre two frets above an A (three fingers for me for an A). I play the F shape string at the seventh fret for a B...I just hope people think I am a cool guy playing up the neck. I guess I should have taken guitar lessons to eliminate my bad habits.

But for me a lot of the allure of the guitar is figuring out how to coax good sounds out of the darn thing. When I play bossa nova jazz chords (only a few), sometimes I just smile at just how beautiful they are.

Now I would agree, if I am playing something with a few Bm, Cm, C#m, Fm chords, I have to be ready...especially if I have a capo on there. But I do have a friend who is a good singer, but a struggling guitar player, who asked me the other day how to make a Bm...I just smiled and said it is easy...this is an Am, this is an A#m, and so this is a Bm. He just shook his head.

My daughter's partner has sort of dabbled with guitar and he knows a few chords but doesn't really understand yet how ANY of it fits together. So I was trying to explain to him how the I IV V progression works, how you can play it anywhere in any key just using the E and A open chord shapes barred up and down the neck. And how that's the basis for zillions of songs. Which was, frankly, the most useful and liberating thing anyone ever showed me when I was pretty new to it and had learned the basic barre chords. And he was just baffled and I remembered back to my earliest days and how confusing some of the simplest concepts seemed at the time. It really is sort of like a language and the first steps in learning a language are the hardest because it is, by definition, a foreign language...

But I get what you mean about playing the bossa nova chords. The first thing I loved about playing acoustic guitar was just hearing an open D chord ring out, or an Am or an Em. And just playing a simple I IV V (even though I didn't know what it was yet or that you could play almost any song using that as a base) and hearing the chords ring out and finding some simple rhythm and just driving it into the ground. And I STILL love that. And now that I'm comfortable with the sliding 6ths and 9ths blues chords on my electric, sometimes I just sit and slide those around for crazy amounts of time. I'm really REALLY easily entertained!

[frankmcr]

Any suggestions for the Em7+4 chord?

[rick-slo]

deleted post

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by frankmcr

Any suggestions for the Em7+4 chord?

2nd fret of the A and G strings, middle and ring fingers respectively. It doesn't have a G in it, but who cares?

[Gordon Currie]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

When I got into my high school stage band with its huge book of complicated charts, I ran in a panic to my neighbor Mr. Hansman, the local jazz cat. He said, "Relax, kid. Just hit the root if you can, and a couple more notes that aren't wrong."

Big full six note chords are only useful (sometimes) when playing solo. As soon as you start playing with others, the 'full range chord' becomes pretty useless. You find that you are crowding out other instruments, and the overall sound gets congested instead of powerful.

Playing with keyboardists who haven't learned that less can be more is often worse. Ten note chords everywhere!

[Frostie]

Apologies if this has already been offered: instead of a barred B minor, most of the time, I play a B minor 7th by fingering the cowboy chord B7 with an open D-string, thus:

1-2
2-open
3-2
4-open
5-2
6-2 or x