The pitfalls of DADGAD and other tunings...

[philjs]

Originally Posted by TBman

To those of you who use these tunings frequently do you leave standard in the dust and not look back? Do you re-arrange standard arrangements into the tunings of your choice or set aside "standard" practice sessions to keep your skills sharp?

Yes to the first, sometimes to the second. DADGAD is my "standard" tuning but I have done a number of arrangements of pieces that move them from EADGBE to DADGAD. One that works really well in DADGAD is Bruce Cockburn's "Mama Just Wants to Barrelhouse."

But if you want to challenge yourself a bit, Barry, try adding a partial capo into the mix, over a base DADGAD tuning. I use a variety of partial and "cut" capos to get a startling array of "tunings" without having to tune anything at all. Try this: If you have a 3-string Esus4 capo try putting it on in 'A' position at the 3rd fret in DADGAD. Strumming the open strings you get DAFBbCD, a pretty nice Dm chord. Add a 2nd 3-string capo in typical Esus4 orientation but on the first fret and now you have DBbFBbCD.

Now try moving both capos up one fret (4th and 2nd frets respectively) and you get DBF#BC#D. Find a Shubb banjo capo (you may need to add some rubber to the back-of-the-neck side of the capo to keep it from tipping forward off of the outside string) and try capoing just the 4 outside strings at various frets. The possibilities are staggering.

Trust me, you won't get bored! But it may not do much for your 3 and 4 finger chord muscle memory!

Phil

[Mr. Jelly]

It's one of the reasons I don't like YouTube guitar revues using tunings. Allot of not so great guitars can come across and sound full and lush with the right tuning to compliment it.

[JonPR]

Like muscmp, I (mostly) keep one guitar in EADGBE and another in DADGAD. I don't tend to transpose pieces from one tuning to another.

If any of you want a serious DADGAD workout, try this:

He extended it and retitled it Avocet for his 1979 album of the same name.
If you think the first minute is not too bad, wait for 1:12 and beyond... (Still struggling with those sections myself.)

The fiddle just doubles the guitar melody (apart from the middle section), so it works fine for solo guitar. (Remember this is the short version.... )

[TBman]

I'm doing some composing in CGCGCD and it is difficult, for me at least, to write stuff that is melody based. Melody is tough enough to start with (obviously or everyone would be a world famous pop tune writer, ).

I've noticed that DADGAD and CGDGAD and CGCGCD are easy to fall into the "guitar centric" rabbit hole of writing. Not that guitar centric stuff is bad by itself, these tunes can be very relaxing and fun to play, but I get the feeling that they may just appeal to guitar geeks like me and not the general public of instrumental guitar music lovers.

I've written a lot of stuff that never sees the light of day because of the guitar centric nature of my writing.

This is an interesting thread and the older one that Rick referenced is very good too. I'll have to check out the music links there and investigate.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by TBman

I'm doing some composing in CGCGCD and it is difficult, for me at least, to write stuff that is melody based. Melody is tough enough to start with (obviously or everyone would be a world famous pop tune writer, ).

...

I've noticed that DADGAD and CGDGAD and CGCGCD are easy to fall into the "guitar centric" rabbit hole of writing. .

Agreed, this is a common issue, but I don't think it's actually unique to alternate tunings. How many times do we hear common guitar cliches in standard tuning? The James Taylor-ish D lick, alternating bass, E blues licks, on and on. These just sound "normal" to us, so we don't think of them as being the guitar-centric cliches that they are. And composing is a creative process that has it's challenges regardless of the tuning, or even the instrument, for that matter.

There are ways to approach the tuning-related issues, tho. Here's a few ideas:

You can come up with the melody (and maybe even the harmony) away from the guitar. Be able to sing the melody before you ever touch the guitar. Pierre Bensusan even has gone so far as to teach himself to hum and sing independent lines at the same time, so he can sing melodies and bass lines, which he uses to compose while he's doing other things. Then he maps it to the guitar. I can't do that, but I can sing a melody, or at least a basic theme that serves as a starting point away from the guitar. Keeps you out of the auto-pilot rabbit hole.

A simpler version of this is to work on the guitar, but resist the urge to let your fingers go off on their own. Play one note, any note. Then stop - what note do you hear next? There's no wrong note, any sequence of 2 notes can be the start of a melody. So don't overthink it, just listen and see what note you "hear" next. Then find that note on the guitar in whatever tuning you're in. Repeat over and over.

Composing a melody is a whole study in itself, but there are tons of books, classes, etc on how to develop melodic ideas. Themes don't have to be something incredible. I attended a workshop with Michael Chapdelaine once where he was talking about things like this, and he reached behind him to a piano, and blindly hit 3 random notes behind his back. He said "there, that's a perfectly fine starting point", so take those 3 random notes and develop them into a tune. I attended a workshop with Al once, where he did something similar - he had people call out random numbers between 1 and 7. Those, as degrees of the scale, became a melody. He added a little harmony below it, and it sounded fine.

In alternate tunings, a big issue is the tendency to just drone. If you don't want that, learn how to play chord progressions in the tuning. For every new tuning I try, I figure out at least the I-IV-V in a couple of keys. Better to learn I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii, then learn to play some standard chord progressions, a blues, some ii-V-Is, I-iv-ii-V, and so on. Once you can find all the basic chords, you can pick out some chord progression, which will give you some structure, then add a melody over that.

You can also learn a tuning and learn to play melodically in it by arranging a tune instead of trying to write one. I often start out with a new tuning with a Beatles tune or similar. Just open up a book with the melody and chords, and try to figure out how I'd play it in the new tuning. I can't noodle aimlessly, there's a known melody and chords to play. By the time I get a tune figured out, even roughly, I have a bunch of chords figured out, and some melodic sequences, portions, at least, of scales identified. And since it's a known tune, you can't go off down a rabbit hole, you have to play the tune...

Just a few ideas.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Agreed, this is a common issue, but I don't think it's actually unique to alternate tunings. How many times do we hear common guitar cliches in standard tuning? The James Taylor-ish D lick, alternating bass, E blues licks, on and on. These just sound "normal" to us, so we don't think of them as being the guitar-centric cliches that they are. And composing is a creative process that has it's challenges regardless of the tuning, or even the instrument, for that matter.

There are ways to approach the tuning-related issues, tho. Here's a few ideas:

You can come up with the melody (and maybe even the harmony) away from the guitar. Be able to sing the melody before you ever touch the guitar. Pierre Bensusan even has gone so far as to teach himself to hum and sing independent lines at the same time, so he can sing melodies and bass lines, which he uses to compose while he's doing other things. Then he maps it to the guitar. I can't do that, but I can sing a melody, or at least a basic theme that serves as a starting point away from the guitar. Keeps you out of the auto-pilot rabbit hole.

A simpler version of this is to work on the guitar, but resist the urge to let your fingers go off on their own. Play one note, any note. Then stop - what note do you hear next? There's no wrong note, any sequence of 2 notes can be the start of a melody. So don't overthink it, just listen and see what note you "hear" next. Then find that note on the guitar in whatever tuning you're in. Repeat over and over.

Composing a melody is a whole study in itself, but there are tons of books, classes, etc on how to develop melodic ideas. Themes don't have to be something incredible. I attended a workshop with Michael Chapdelaine once where he was talking about things like this, and he reached behind him to a piano, and blindly hit 3 random notes behind his back. He said "there, that's a perfectly fine starting point", so take those 3 random notes and develop them into a tune. I attended a workshop with Al once, where he did something similar - he had people call out random numbers between 1 and 7. Those, as degrees of the scale, became a melody. He added a little harmony below it, and it sounded fine.

In alternate tunings, a big issue is the tendency to just drone. If you don't want that, learn how to play chord progressions in the tuning. For every new tuning I try, I figure out at least the I-IV-V in a couple of keys. Better to learn I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii, then learn to play some standard chord progressions, a blues, some ii-V-Is, I-iv-ii-V, and so on. Once you can find all the basic chords, you can pick out some chord progression, which will give you some structure, then add a melody over that.

You can also learn a tuning and learn to play melodically in it by arranging a tune instead of trying to write one. I often start out with a new tuning with a Beatles tune or similar. Just open up a book with the melody and chords, and try to figure out how I'd play it in the new tuning. I can't noodle aimlessly, there's a known melody and chords to play. By the time I get a tune figured out, even roughly, I have a bunch of chords figured out, and some melodic sequences, portions, at least, of scales identified. And since it's a known tune, you can't go off down a rabbit hole, you have to play the tune...

Just a few ideas.

Good info Doug, thanks. Lots of great ideas.

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by TBman

To those of you who use these tunings frequently do you leave standard in the dust and not look back? Do you re-arrange standard arrangements into the tunings of your choice

I play in DADGAD, standard and several other custom tunings for specific compositions by fingerstyle players eg CGDGGD, CGDGBbC.

I don't leave standard in the dust, some of my own arrangements are in standard plus other compositions I have learned, I feel no need to rearrange these all into one tuning. Variety is good and anyway certain keys (and arrangements) work well in certain tunings, no need to try and homogenise things IMO.

Originally Posted by TBman

..or set aside "standard" practice sessions to keep your skills sharp?

Hardly, some of the hardest pieces I play (Hedges, Bensusan, Mckee, Dawes...) are in altered tunings with difficult and unique fingerings plus extended techniques, I certainly don't need to 'brush up' when I go back to standard, if anything it's the other way round!

[Ameridane]

Doug’s advice was spot on.

I play solo a lot so I like to compose and play in mainly DADGAD, but I have no problem playing in standard tuning when I play with others. Although I do feel that DADGAD and alternate tunings in general appeal to my particular brain and the way I hear things. Sometimes when I have to play in standard tuning it feels like I’m forced to spend time with and old girlfriend that I never was too crazy about to begin with. Lol