When is Common Time Not So Common?

[Mr Fixit eh]

I'm working on a song that is written in 4/4 time, however it does not feel like it's in 4/4 time. It's got an irish jig feel to it and it feels like it's in a 2-count meter. It feels like it really should have been written in 6/8 or 12/8 time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFw87Ku_qWg

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/55974482/music_meter.pdf



Am I way off base here?

Steve

[Paikon]

6/8 for me

[JonPR]

Yup. Classic Irish 6/8. (Two beats per bar, divided into triplets.)

[rick-slo]

It has a galloping rhythm. I like like using triplets and feeling 4/4, but you can deal with it in different ways. For example

[stanron]

It's not uncommon to write six or twelve eight time as two four or four four. Usually there would be indication at the start of the score. I usually write 'play with full swing feel'.

If you use a scoring program like Sibelius there is a facility to have the score play with a variety of swing feels. It's a lot easier to write in four four. At least when on a computer. Trying to get a swing feel using a dotted eighth note followed by a sixteenth works for a reader but won't sound right in Sibelius.

A lot of this goes on in traditional music with hornpipes. They are written either way and played either way depending on where and with whom.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by stanron

It's not uncommon to write six or twelve eight time as two four or four four. Usually there would be indication at the start of the score. I usually write 'play with full swing feel'.

Yes, but this isn't swing. It's Irish jig, which is traditionally written in 6/8.

Admittedly it's fast, and could be felt as being in 4. But "full swing feel" (in this case) would need to be understood as triplet feel (not just freely, as jazz swing), and I don't know how many musicians would get that.

There is a big difference between Irish jig and jazz swing .

[stanron]

Mmmmm

I obviously could have expressed myself better. My impression from the original post was that the OP has a score for this piece that is in four four time. He is right to think it should be six or twelve eight. My point is that compound stuff can be found written in simple time.

I don't think I mentioned jazz at all. Indigenous western music has used compound or swing time for as long as music has been recorded and probably longer, maybe as long as people have danced although we cannot have proof of that. It is not an American or jazz innovation.

I used to play tunes with an old Irish guy and everything he played had a wonderful subtle swing feel which came as a real surprise when I first heard it. He even had a swing feel when he played reels. Most of the time you never got to hear him because lots of people came to join in. Unfortunately they all played in simple time and after the first bar or so you could no longer hear him. Also traditional Irish players play jigs with a kind of swing feel. The second note of triplets is delayed slightly leaving the gap between the second and third note reduced. This is just about impossible to notate so that people who learn to play off dots don't get it and can easily overpower those who do. Cheers.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by stanron

I obviously could have expressed myself better. My impression from the original post was that the OP has a score for this piece that is in four four time. He is right to think it should be six or twelve eight.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by stanron

My point is that compound stuff can be found written in simple time.

I don't think I mentioned jazz at all. Indigenous western music has used compound or swing time for as long as music has been recorded and probably longer, maybe as long as people have danced although we cannot have proof of that. It is not an American or jazz innovation.

Right, but "compound" and "swing" are two very different things, that was my point. Compound time is where beats divide into 3. They don't do that in swing except at slower tempos. At quicker tempos, swing 8ths approach straight 8ths. A metre like 6/8 remains as triplets even at very fast tempos.

Originally Posted by stanron

I used to play tunes with an old Irish guy and everything he played had a wonderful subtle swing feel which came as a real surprise when I first heard it. He even had a swing feel when he played reels. Most of the time you never got to hear him because lots of people came to join in. Unfortunately they all played in simple time and after the first bar or so you could no longer hear him. Also traditional Irish players play jigs with a kind of swing feel. The second note of triplets is delayed slightly leaving the gap between the second and third note reduced. This is just about impossible to notate so that people who learn to play off dots don't get it and can easily overpower those who do. Cheers.

OK, yes, that's a more subtle thing: swing feel within a compound meter.

I agree that lot of things about various kinds of folk music rhythms can't be notated precisely - that notation is always a simplification - and maybe a jig in 6/8 can be played as loosely as a jazz player might play a piece in 4/4.

[Mr Fixit eh]

Originally Posted by stanron

My impression from the original post was that the OP has a score for this piece that is in four four time. He is right to think it should be six or twelve eight. My point is that compound stuff can be found written in simple time.

Yes, that was the case.

Steve

[Mr Fixit eh]

Thanks for the replies - helps me to understand what I'm seeing better.

Given the feel of the music, it seemed really odd to me to see it written in 4/4 time. I wonder it it a case of (1) the original songwriter didn't intend it to be played as a jig, or (2) publisher not understanding convention?

Steve

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Mr Fixit eh

Thanks for the replies - helps me to understand what I'm seeing better.

Given the feel of the music, it seemed really odd to me to see it written in 4/4 time. I wonder it it a case of (1) the original songwriter didn't intend it to be played as a jig, or (2) publisher not understanding convention?

Steve

This piece is traditionally more properly a reel than a jig, and the timing of the two is different, two beats in reels, three beats in jigs, therefore the 4/4 timing shown in sheet music.

[Paikon]

what is written in sheet music is completely different from the video
if someone wants to capture the rhythm on the video he should write it in 6/8
IMO

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Paikon

what is written in sheet music is completely different from the video
if someone wants to capture the rhythm on the video he should write it in 6/8
IMO

Not really.
Here is the sheet music.

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Not really.
Here is the sheet music.

Thats not what we listen on the video and different from the sheet music the OP posted .

edit ok i saw the part the OP was refering but still different from the video

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Paikon

Thats not what we listen on the video and different from the sheet music the OP posted .

The timing shown on the refrain sounds like the recording. I thought it was triplet timing at first but actually it is not quite that. However it would not be that hard, though not correct, to smear the timing into that.