Bridge plate damage

[gitnoob]

I picked up an old Lyon and Healy Lakeside parlor (c 1910) as a potential project. It's actually in surprisingly good shape except for one thing....



That's a spruce bridge plate that also doubles as a brace. It's been chewed through by ball ends all the way to the sound board.

I'm think that the Right Thing to do would be to remove the back, remove the bridge plate, replace it with maple, and rebrace the guitar for steel strings.

Alternatively, I could try to leave the back on, chisel out a section of the bridge plate and glue in a patch.

Hmm. Just putting that in writing makes it sound like no fun.

I think I'll pull the back and rebrace. Any thoughts before I dive in?

[martinedwards]

with that one l;adder brace I'd be REALLY worried about steel strings. you don't want to pull it to pieces. as a Historic instrument I'd want to keep it as near original as possible.

[gitnoob]

Good point. I also forgot to mention that there's no neck reinforcement, so bracing for steel stings might not be a good idea.

[gitnoob]

Man, it's quiet in here.

I decided to try the least invasive fix. I ordered a thin piece of ebony, and I plan to just glue it on top of the existing brace.

[gitnoob]

Well, my ebony scraps arrived in the mail today. Drilled a couple of holes in one of them with the intention of bolting it onto the bridge plate through the bridge pin holes while the glue dries. Last chance to stop me!

[SteveS]

The right thing to do would be to replace that brace. Depending on the value of the guitar, I'd probably add a couple of thin pieces of spruce to "box in" the area in need of repair then fill the holes partially with epoxy. After the epoxy dried, I would re-drill the holes.

[gitnoob]

It's not a valuable guitar. Lakeside was Lyon and Healy's low-end brand. I'll probably string it with nylgut and give it to my 7-year-old.

I'd be concerned about the heat required to remove that brace as well as trying to get a new brace in place through the soundhole.

I figure a thin ebony plate would prevent the existing plate from further damage and shouldn't kill the tone too much.

Apparently these bridge-plate fixes are controversial, so I thought I'd post for a sanity check. But if it doesn't work out, I guess I could always remove the whole mess without much more difficulty than removing the existing brace.

[Megaman]

I often find Lakeside L&H parlors on eBay for 300-400+ dollars... I wouldnt really give it to a 7 year old ... Probably is an incredible blues box!

These guitars, as per N.Harpe of Stella Guitars, states that ladder brace parlors of this era were MADE for low tension steel strings...A set of lights will do, or a set of 'silk and steel' strings if you are worried about the tension.

You can tell by the neck heel of the guitar if it was made for gut or steel. If the heel is 'V' in profile, like the neck, its for steel... If the heel turns into a snow cone and is round or curved meeting the body, its for gut strings... Its a dead give away for pre-war parlors.

I would simply find a spruce sheet or a thicker spruce veneer and make the bridge brace-plate.

Good luck!!

MM

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by Megaman

These guitars, as per N.Harpe of Stella Guitars, states that ladder brace parlors of this era were MADE for low tension steel strings...A set of lights will do, or a set of 'silk and steel' strings if you are worried about the tension.

You can tell by the neck heel of the guitar if it was made for gut or steel. If the heel is 'V' in profile, like the neck, its for steel... If the heel turns into a snow cone and is round or curved meeting the body, its for gut strings... Its a dead give away for pre-war parlors.

Interesting. Never heard that before. Mine does have the "V" heel, but the neck isn't reinforced, and the ladder bracing is basically just the brace/bridge-plate + one more diagonal brace.

My impression was that they originally sold an optional tail-piece for people who wanted to use steel strings. (It was a $0.25 option, I believe.) But I think they still experienced neck-bowing even with that configuration.

[Megaman]

Possibly... I like Frank Ford's POV on tail pieces: " Musical supply houses used to sell these cheap tin tailpieces for quick repairs, and we often see the scars left by their application to elegant instruments."... You are right though. Much like Archtops, tail pieces distribute the weight of the strings better over the top...

basically though, "If you just can't seem to get the bridge to stay glued down, you can always add a tailpiece"...

not many necks were reinforced until after the 40s... The neck is probably very solid though, despite the fact that lakeside necks were usually some mystery wood... most suspect poplar wood.. Most blues masters started out on guitars much like yours, simply because they were too poor to buy higher end guitars... They had steel strings an all the like and were usually all ladder braced... despite not having the tail piece, I think this parlor can take light gauge steel strings. Just avoid tuning her in standard E tuning (much too high tension)...I would do open D or open C... but if you HAVE to have standard tuning, do'er up in standard D...

Another thing you could do when doing the repair with the spruce sheet, to make the bridge brace-plate, is get a maple or rose wood veneer. Cut it to the size and spacing of where the bridge pins go [like a real bridge plate in size, from hi E to low E], glue it to the fitted spruce bridge brace-plate that you made and presto! If desired, you can make pre-stacked veneer layers of the make-shift suto bridge plate area.

Would like to know what you are doing with it, what is the lowerbout size btw?

regards,

MM...

[arie]

Originally Posted by Megaman

The neck is probably very solid though, despite the fact that lakeside necks were usually some mystery wood... most suspect poplar wood..

he might have the spruce neck

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by arie

he might have the spruce neck

The neck is a mystery wood -- not mahogany, but not spruce either.

Here's what I think I know about this little parlor:

Make: Lyon and Healy?
Model: Lakeside (stamp visible from sound hole)
Top: Solid Spruce (stained mahogany-brown)
Back: Solid QS Oak? (single piece)
Sides: Soild QS Oak?
Neck: Imitation mahogany, soft-V profile, slot-head
Tuners: non-original 3-on-a-plate
Lower bout: 13"
Upper bout: 9-1/4"
Body Length: 18"
Length overall: 36-1/2"
Depth at heel: 3-1/8"
Depth at tail: 4"
Scale: 24-1/4"
Fingerboard: Rosewood
Bridge: Rosewood (Pyramid)
Nut: Ebony
Saddle: Bone
Rosette: Decal?
Binding: none
Bracing: Ladder, spruce
Bridge Plate: Spruce, integrated into brace
Notes: Possibly size-1 (standard) from 1887-1922, original price ~$14

[Megaman]

You ought to post pics...

Sounds like Lyon and Healy for sure... dont know who else had the lakeside brand. Also, they were known for their nice selection of Oak sides and back... My L&H is of the same of yours it seems. Oak is an underdog wood for sides and back I find... Dont know why, it seems to suit guitars well...

N.Harpe observed that many parlor makers, surging from 1900-1920s(early), used mainly oak for their low to mid range guitars. I think your parlor was made during that influx. I cannot think of a single pre-war parlor that had Oak back and sides and was intended only for gut strings...

The martin style bridge (pyramid) might have been a later install, or a custom install during that era by the original owner?

Again, pics would be great!

Btw, I LOVE pre-war parlors...
Nothing like 100 year old aged solid woods... After they are setup well, they are tone kings.

[gitnoob]

Originally Posted by Megaman

I cannot think of a single pre-war parlor that had Oak back and sides and was intended only for gut strings...

My only source is the book "Washburn Prewar Insrument Styles," which suggests that Lyon and Healy included warnings against the use of steel strings in their ads of that period.

I assumed that X-bracing and neck-reinforcement were the two major indicators that a guitar was built for steel strings, and this parlor has neither.

The martin style bridge (pyramid) might have been a later install, or a custom install during that era by the original owner?

I called it "pyramid," but I'm sure that's not the right term -- similar to the Martin pyramids, but with the top of the pyramid lopped off. (The same source indicates that this style bridge was standard until 1922, when they introduced the "smile" bridge.)

Btw, I LOVE pre-war parlors...
Nothing like 100 year old aged solid woods... After they are setup well, they are tone kings.

I took off the strings as soon as I saw the bridge plate, but the box does seem lightly built and resonant. I'm looking forward to stringing her back up.

Here's plane Jane....