Schoeps CMC6 MK4 or Josephson e22s Pair

[Rick Shepherd]

Hey all,

Back in 2005, I briefly owned a pair of Josephson e22s microphones. I only had them for a short time and this was before I completed my recording setup and live rig. I had nothing to compare the mics to as far as SDCs because this was all new to me, and I never had a decent pair of them for recording guitar. Back in those days, I considered myself as more of a singer than guitar player.

At that time, the e22s mics were relatively new to the market, and they were primarily designed for closeup recording of percussion instruments, but they are amazing for recording acoustic guitars and other stringed instruments. You may be surprised to know they are also good for recording vocals.

Without going into all the details, I ended up selling them and bought a pair of Gefell M300 mics. I am still very happy with the Gefells!

Now, 17 years later, I am still haunted by those Josephson e22s mics. Not only were they amazing for recording acoustic guitar, but I discovered they were amazing for live use. Without knowing technically why this was the case, and without any prior experience with high end SDCs, I do remember how special they were.

I am now ready to add another pair of high end SDCs to my gear list, but I am struggling with which pair I should buy. The thing is, I also have a nice Pendulum sps-1/Daedalus rig for live use, and I think the e22s mics would be perfect for that setup as well. As I recall, they were much less likely to have feedback issues. I have read other reviews which compare these mics to the old Neumann km84, but moreso.

The e22s is a side address mic, which can at first seem a bit odd trying to position them for acoustic guitar, but hey, when you hear them it doesn’t matter. Besides, they are pretty cool and unique in this way.

I remember plugging the e22s into my old Mackie PA, this was before my Sps-1/Daedalus rig, and was completely blown away! I was surprised to discover they didn’t need much gain to get plenty of sound out of them. On the other hand, for recording, they do require a clean preamp with plenty of gain. I use an Avalon AD 2022.

That said, I am still on the fence as far as which pair of mics to get, a pair of Schoeps CMC6 MK4, or the e22s.

Does anyone else here have any experience with the Josephson e22s? If not, perhaps you can assist me with making the right choice, whatever “right” is.


Regards!


Rick

[Fran Guidry]

Sorry, no experience with the Josephsons. But some opinions nonetheless.

Schoeps Colette mic amps are modular, they form the basis for a system. Even though cardioid mics dominate the market there are benefits and use cases for different patterns.

So it's possible that you might find the Schoeps MK41 to be more useful than the MK4, both for recording and live work. A pair are wonderful for coincident and spaced pair stereo arrays. And an MK41 and MK8 pair is a definitive M/S combo.

And if you're buying new you might want to look at the new CMC1. https://schoeps.de/en/products/colet...s/cmc-1-u.html

Then there's this idea that buying any microphone to replace a good working pro level existing microphone is more about emotion than logic, right?

Fran

[Rick Shepherd]

Hi Fran!

Thanks for your thoughts! A few things:

1. I probably wouldn’t ever use the Schoeps for live acoustic/PA system setup.

2. I recently listened to a shootout between the Schoeps and the Gefell M300, and I couldn’t hear any noticeable difference, so it seems like it might be unnecessary and/or duplicative to go with the Schoeps. As I said, I have a pair of M300’s.

3. Perhaps with my current recording setup, I would notice an improvement or difference with the Schoeps.


Rick

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

..I recently listened to a shootout between the Schoeps and the Gefell M300, and I couldn’t hear any noticeable difference..
Rick

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

Schoeps Colette mic amps are modular, they form the basis for a system. Even though cardioid mics dominate the market there are benefits and use cases for different patterns.
Fran

It’s possible the comparison was Anton‘s post on this forum not long ago. He borrowed my Schoeps MK4's for that. And I posted a similar video a couple years ago comparing M300s to KM184’s where some people also commented how there very little perceptible difference.. I’ve had all three pairs with some overlap.

My own take for what it’s worth is that the differences between all three high-end SDC pairs are pretty tiny -magnitude less than internet folklore would have one to believe for sure. If I did it over again I’d probably just keep the 184’s because they sound great, and are pretty easy to fine a pair in mint condition for less than a single Schoeps..

That said I’m keeping my Schoeps, because if pressed I’d say, to my non-golden ears, with my non-gold setup, they’re a very little bit more neutral -some might say "flat" than the 184s. And as Fran pointed out they are part of a larger modular system. I don’t know if I ever will, but I could pick up say, a pair of the omni capsules, the figure eight, etc, and have quite a lot of options.

I have not tried the Josephson e22. I had a pair of their C42’s and actually didn’t care for them, as there was always a slight metallic quality to the high end to my ear..

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

Hi Fran!

2. I recently listened to a shootout between the Schoeps and the Gefell M300, and I couldn’t hear any noticeable difference, so it seems like it might be unnecessary and/or duplicative to go with the Schoeps. As I said, I have a pair of M300’s.

I also heard that shoot out and your are right no difference. However If you can Find Doug Young's shoot out he did a couple of years ago( may he can post them here)...I did hear a difference. And thus I bought Schoeps which are twice the price of Gefells.

With that being said...even though I did find enough of a difference between the two to warrant buying the Schoesp, it is not a major difference. If the Josephson e22's offer something different..then that might be a reason to choose them alone.

On the other hand there might have been good reason why you sold the Josephson e22's in the first place? And bought the Gefell's? While your memory says that those mics stood out, you will have to reach deep into your memory and then ask why you sold them. I know nothing about the e22's. But if memory serves it is not known for its flatness. If you look at the chart I think it has a sharp bump starting at 5k. That can be a plus for some, & and a negative for others.

[Rick Shepherd]

Hello Eric!

Ya, the C42 microphone is often described as you say. I guess one of the things which sways me towards either of these two options is they are more feedback resistant and reject more room noise. At least I think that is the case with the mk41 and the e22 compared to the gefell m300. My recording environment isn’t the best and ambient noise can be an issue.

Rick

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

I also heard that shoot out and your are right no difference. However If you can Find Doug Young's shoot out he did a couple of years ago( may he can post them here)...I did hear a difference. And thus I bought Schoeps which are twice the price of Gefells.

I forgot I did that, but here is the whole thread/discussion:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=522846

Or just the Gefell vs Schoeps track (Schoeps are first, and these are different performances):



Mic shootouts are always a bit suspect, even when I'm doing them for myself. Not only are the differences way less than the internet tells you, but I may prefer on mic on Monday and a different one on Tuesday - and on Wed, I can't hear any difference :-))

I've not heard the Josephson's unfortunately.

[Rick Shepherd]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I forgot I did that, but here is the whole thread/discussion:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=522846

Or just the Gefell vs Schoeps track (Schoeps are first, and these are different performances):



Mic shootouts are always a bit suspect, even when I'm doing them for myself. Not only are the differences way less than the internet tells you, but I may prefer on mic on Monday and a different one on Tuesday - and on Wed, I can't hear any difference :-))

I've not heard the Josephson's unfortunately.

The Gefell sounds more detailed to me than the Schoeps in that track. Interesting!

[alohachris]

Aloha Rick,

I PM'ed Ya.

alohachris

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by min7b5

... I don’t know if I ever will, but I could pick up say, a pair of the omni capsules, the figure eight, etc, and have quite a lot of options.
...

I so foolishly sold my MK2 pair some years ago and regretted it ever since. I tried LD switchable mics and various SD omnis but never caught the magic. And the classical recordist on GearSlutz (now GearSpace) who keeps calling the MK2 the most perfect mic in the world didn't help my angst. So when a pair popped up on Ebay I broke my "no more mics" vow and grabbed them.

If I manage to put a decent sound into the room, these are the mics that put _that_ sound into the audio file. If I'm outside and dealing with wind noise, omni mics are much less susceptible to racket. Without proximity I can mic as close as I want without boomy buildup. Ummm, yes, I am a Schoeps omni fanboy (grin). But I like my MK41s, MK8s, and even MK4s too!

Fran

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Rick Shepherd

The Gefell sounds more detailed to me than the Schoeps in that track. Interesting!

Words to describe sound are always a challenge, but to me "detailed" often means more highs or presence, and the M300's have a high end boost, not unlike KM184, while the Schoeps are ruler-flat.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Fran Guidry

I so foolishly sold my MK2 pair some years ago and regretted it ever since. I tried LD switchable mics and various SD omnis but never caught the magic. And the classical recordist on GearSlutz (now GearSpace) who keeps calling the MK2 the most perfect mic in the world didn't help my angst. So when a pair popped up on Ebay I broke my "no more mics" vow and grabbed them.

If I manage to put a decent sound into the room, these are the mics that put _that_ sound into the audio file. If I'm outside and dealing with wind noise, omni mics are much less susceptible to racket. Without proximity I can mic as close as I want without boomy buildup. Ummm, yes, I am a Schoeps omni fanboy (grin). But I like my MK41s, MK8s, and even MK4s too!

Fran

I didn't know you had an MK8, Fran! I've had a few bouts of playing with the MK2s lately, and they do sound really nice, open and natural.

[Rick Shepherd]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Words to describe sound are always a challenge, but to me "detailed" often means more highs or presence, and the M300's have a high end boost, not unlike KM184, while the Schoeps are ruler-flat.

Thanks for noting that Doug! Considering my recording setup, I think the upgrade will be noticeable. THIS SHOULD BE FUN, AND A BIT EXCITING!

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I didn't know you had an MK8, Fran! I've had a few bouts of playing with the MK2s lately, and they do sound really nice, open and natural.

I'm actually guilty of having a pair of MK8s. I've used them to experiment with Blumlein stereo and especially for vocal/guitar isolation.

My first CD was a matter of scraping together whatever I could stand to hear, but the stuff I did with the MK2s and a Jecklin baffle were the juiciest.

Fran

[kellyb]

Just a quick aside...have you heard the DPA 4011?...it always sounds the most honest to me for that type of mic. The Schoeps are wonderful as well of course!

Chiming in because I, too, am still haunted by the E22s that I sold. I really wish I hadn't. I think they take a bit to learn to position, but they might be my favorite (solid state) acoustic guitar mic. Compared to the great SD mics, I think they have a special thing. Big sounding. Dense, but detailed. For acou guitar, I think I'd prefer it to the usual SD suspects in most cases.

Schoeps are cool, and they have name recognition if you're doing hired mobile recording for orchestras, etc. You have capsule options ther, too, right? For a live rig, I'd probably want to keep that option open. Also, for some reason, and I could have dreamt it, but I remember the E22s to have an interesting pattern...almost hyper card, though I don't think they're marketed that way. They also needed a lot of gain. Neither of those things are bad of course, but they might be considerations? Dunno! It's a wonderful problem you have solve there! :-)