Advise - Independent Luthier vs. Martin, Taylor etal.

[Fretting Again]

Once you move above the $2000 price range all kinds of opportunities for purchasing guitars open up. Beautiful products from Taylor, Martin etc. However there are also opportunities to purchase used or one of a kind instruments from independent luthiers.

Now a Martin will have a certain, fairly predictable resale value, so will a Collings etc, when purchasing a guitar from an independent luthier things get much more unpredictable. Putting the obvious resale question aside what risks does a person take when buying an instrument from a guy who only makes a couple dozen instruments a year. The assumption here is that the fit and finish appear to be flawless and the guitar sounds wonderful.

I was planning on buying an OM-21 Special and it's probably the safe choice - but in my heart I would like to support and independent guy who builds products that he loves, that he knows that he's invested a good deal of himself into.

Thanks for your feedback.

[Brackett Instruments]

My opinion is, if you want an OM21 Special, with the same specs as the rest of the OM21 Specials out there....get an OM21 Special. IMHO there's nothing wrong with them. If you want an OM(or any body style, including a custom body), but different woods, different neck shape and width, different scale length, different binding, ect, then go with a custom. If you want to see your guitar being made, then go with a custom. Tone is subjective so I won't get into that. Enjoy your search.

BTW, I appreciate your willingness to support the "independent guy who builds products that he loves".



Also, Welcome to the forum.

[Fliss]

Hi and welcome to the forum

It's nice to support the independent guy, but if you're spending a lot of money on an instrument, the most important thing is that it should be the right instrument for you.

In my mind, the reasons for choosing a guitar from a big, popular maker like Martin or Taylor would include things like you want the particular tone that the maker is famous for, or you are concerned about re-sale value, or you know you can find lots of these used for a good price, or you want to know exactly what you are going to get. Whereas the reasons for going the custom route with an individual builder (again, IMO) would include things like a really strong liking of that particular builder's work, and the desire for something really individual, or for some special combination of features that you can't find in a standard factory-built guitar.

The big risk with the sole builder custom route is that each guitar that builder makes will be individual so you don't necessarily know exactly how it's going to turn out. As Woody says, if an OM21 is what you want, the best way to get that is to buy an OM21.


Fliss

[Fretting Again]

I'm not going to buy something that I can't either play or play a reasonable facsimile of before purchasing, I can't really afford to make any mistakes. But assuming that the small shop guitar is obviously well made and sounds great are there any concerns that I should have about build integrity or quality. I don't really care so much about brand name recognition to impress my friends or so that the guitar has good resale value - but I'd hate to buy a guitar and have the neck warp, or the binding come loose (actually I don't know what to worry about). I suppose that could happen with a Martin but I'd think that they know what they can get away with after 150 years. Or is modern Luthurie enough of a science that if a guy has the appropriate training he can build products of high structural integrity without turning out thousands of products over 20 or more years.

And thanks for the input!

[Brent Hutto]

If you find an OM-21 or whatever that sounds and feels ideal for what you're looking for you are IMO totally better off buying it than looking around for an equivalent guitar by a small builder. The best you're going to do is find a small-builder guitar that's similar and it is unlikely to be any cheaper plus as you mention Martins hold their resale value pretty well and except for a few well know names the small-builder guitars take a big hit upon first resale (unless of course you buy it used).

To me the best Martin or Taylor I've ever played is noticeably different than handbuilt guitars. And I happen to like the sound and response of the handbuilts better. So it would be a mistake for me to buy a Martin just because it was a better deal or I can get a better price for it if I sell it. So in other words buy the guitar you like best and if you're worried about price or resale value then keep shopping until you find a used one (either type).

P.S. I did have a bridge come loose on one handbuilt guitar when I tried using heavier strings than it was designed for (the builder told me to go ahead and try it but keep an eye on the bridge and the top). Easily fixed. Generally speaking you can scope out small builders and make sure they have a good track record. I would be nervous buying a guitar from somebody no one had heard of who had only built a dozen instruments. But the guys who've been at it a while are generally anal retentive borderline pathological about build quality and build guitars no Martin or Taylor can match in terms of attention to detail.

[Huckleberry]

Fliss is right, individual guitars will vary. I have two luthier-built guitars and have just bought a third.

The two I own are both used, so I'm not worried about resale - they'll be worth about what I paid. I played the Baranik before buying, so knew I'd love what I was getting. I had played the same size and same wood (though not in the same guitar) as my Sheppard so by triangulation knew pretty much what I was going to get. I was not disappointed!

I would lose money if I were ever to sell the Hamblin I just bought, but I've played it several times over the last year so know it pretty well.

I always prefer to play a guitar before I buy but, if I were ever to order a custom, I would want to have played several of the luthier's instruments first.

[Jeff M]

Originally Posted by Fretting Again

...Putting the obvious resale question aside what risks does a person take when buying an instrument from a guy who only makes a couple dozen instruments a year. The assumption here is that the fit and finish appear to be flawless and the guitar sounds wonderful.

...

It is a risk.
Not all "independent luthiers" are going to make guitars that you will like....or you think are "superior" to guitars built by folks like Martin, Taylor, Gibson.

It's been my finding that there are builders whose guitars fit and finish are flawless and guitars sound wonderful...but there are just as many whose fit and finish are not and they don't.

I've played guitars by some pretty well known builders that have left me scratching my head, and heard of some horror stories out there.

Best if you can play a builders guitars first before commissioning..or better yet, play the actual guitar you are interested in.

I own several custom built and "small shop" guitars that I love...in addition to several "manufactured" guitars by Martin, Gibson.
They are all good.

Originally Posted by Brent Hutto

If you find an OM-21 or whatever that sounds and feels ideal for what you're looking for you are IMO totally better off buying it than looking around for an equivalent guitar by a small builder.

Yep.

[SuperB23]

Here is a list of Luthier Built guitars that I would not hesitate to buy because I have played one or more and been quite impressed with them.

John Mayes
Tim McKnight
Cornerstone Guitars
Roy McAlister
Kevin Corcoran

Here is a list of luthier built guitars that I wouldn't hesitate to buy that I haven't played but trust players who have told me a lot about them and their reps speak for themselves. Unfortunately I cannot afford a lot of the guitars on this list.

Kevin Ryan
James Olson
Circa (John Slobod)
Jeff Traugott
Woolson Soundcraft
Omega Guitars
Bruce Petros
Ervin Somogyi
TJ Thompson
Kim Walker
Wayne Henderson
Michael Baranik
Howard Klepper

Small Shop brands that I would not hesitate to buy one of their guitars.

Santa Cruz
Froggy Bottom
Bourgeois
Rockbridge
Goodall

[Martin_Nut]

Like some others who have posted here, I've been through a bunch of guitars in the past decade. A fair number of them single maker and boutique guitars. I tend to like the small makers best of all, but am picky about which I will buy. I went through four or five used less expensive single builder guitars before springing for a really good one. Once I had a taste of a good one, that got me goin.

Not to say that there is not an OM-21 or similar guitar out there that I'd flip over, but I feel that I have had some good luck with the single builder guitars I've acquired.

Though I own four pretty good ones now, three of the four were used purchases. Two of those fit in the "barely used" category - couldn't tell anyone had ever picked them up, really. One is a new one that I commissioned - a first for me. I will say that if you do your homework owning a single builder guitar can be a very satisfying experience.

Fit and finish on the better ones are amazing, and costs very reasonable given the amount of time invested by the builder. Lots to chose from, that's for sure! Good luck!

[K III]

Ordering a custom build and having it in your hand, is undescribeable.

It's just GREAT. Coming out of a shop with a Martin or Taylor will never give you this feeling. And it holds on for a looooooooong time. It might even change the tone you hear. It certainly changes your playing because you play more

We all know and it's been said a million times that it's all about tone, but what's life without some emotions?

[Cornerstone Guitars]

Originally Posted by K III

Ordering a custom build and having it in your hand, is undescribeable...... Coming out of a shop with a Martin or Taylor will never give you this feeling. And it holds on for a looooooooong time. It might even change the tone you hear. It certainly changes your playing because you play more

We all know and it's been said a million times that it's all about tone, but what's life without some emotions?

Well said.

[ChuckS]

Originally Posted by Fretting Again

Once you move above the $2000 price range all kinds of opportunities for purchasing guitars open up. Beautiful products from Taylor, Martin etc. However there are also opportunities to purchase used or one of a kind instruments from independent luthiers.

Now a Martin will have a certain, fairly predictable resale value, so will a Collings etc, when purchasing a guitar from an independent luthier things get much more unpredictable. Putting the obvious resale question aside what risks does a person take when buying an instrument from a guy who only makes a couple dozen instruments a year. The assumption here is that the fit and finish appear to be flawless and the guitar sounds wonderful.

I was planning on buying an OM-21 Special and it's probably the safe choice - but in my heart I would like to support and independent guy who builds products that he loves, that he knows that he's invested a good deal of himself into.

Thanks for your feedback.

You will probably be pretty limited in finding a handbuilt, even used, for $2000. There are some, and if one is a good match for what you are looking for then great. But be aware it may take some time and may not happen. Are you close enough, or can you justify travel costs, to get to a show to try various builders guitars? Even so, that may not be that helpful when looking for used. Can you justify shipping costs to try out used ones?

Getting to your question of risks: You may want to find out about service work, even if it's not under warranty. Is the builder available to do service work, what is the turn around time, and will the cost/risk of shipping be prohibitive? Are there construction techniques or materials that make service simple or more difficult (neck joint, finish material and application). Are some of the materials more prone to needing service (some woods are more prone to cracking). Were some design techniques used to decrease the likelihood of needing service work (double sides, stiff/adjustable necks such as laminated with carbon fiber rods).

Even with the areas of concern, I like handbuilt guitars. But it is more difficult with constraints on how much you plan on spending.

[Brent Hutto]

Both of my everyday player guitars were built by single craftsmen. The steel string by John Walker in his own solo shop and the nylon string way back in the 70's by Masaki Sakurai while apprenticing under Masaru Kohno.

I feel and hear a qualitative difference between handbuilt guitars of good or even moderate quality and even the very best factory instruments. In my experience your $2,000 budget is sufficient, perhaps barely, to get you into the realm of considering handbuilt guitars if you also find you like their sound and feel. If I had not managed to find a used, handbuilt steel string guitar that worked for me in that budget range I was prepared to get an OM-21 from Martin. But even for the relatively moderate cost of that guitar I would have felt like I was "settling" a little given how much I love the extra measure of responsiveness and unique voicing available in custom guitars (whether custom ordered by you or purchased second-hand).

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by K III

Ordering a custom build and having it in your hand, is undescribeable.

It's just GREAT. Coming out of a shop with a Martin or Taylor will never give you this feeling. And it holds on for a looooooooong time. It might even change the tone you hear. It certainly changes your playing because you play more

We all know and it's been said a million times that it's all about tone, but what's life without some emotions?

I love my luthier built guitars, they're magnificent instruments, they make me want to play more and better.

I love my Martin, it's a magnificent instrument, it makes me want to play more and better.

I think you've been shopping in the wrong place for your Martins.

Fran

[$ongWriter]

I got a Webber Roundbody and a Woolson both off of this forum. I'd played a Webber at Cotton Music and loved it. And the one I got was just as good. Different woods so it sounded a little different but it is still great. Then, when my Woolson arrived I was blown away. I never knew a guitar could be this special. It' s almost too good!!...plus there are some amazing deals right now on the forum for around $3000. That's how I'd go....small shop all the way!!