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  #46  
Old 03-13-2016, 07:01 AM
polarred21 polarred21 is offline
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I'm currently taking this Berklee course and barre chords are still difficult but I can play a few.

I thought this was interesting of holding the guitar more tightly than I do with my strumming arm......now I hope I don't break the guitar.

Go to 1:15 mark to see his instructions on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOhH...WQI2VV4zTPIG8T
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  #47  
Old 03-13-2016, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by polarred21 View Post
I'm currently taking this Berklee course and barre chords are still difficult but I can play a few.

I thought this was interesting of holding the guitar more tightly than I do with my strumming arm......now I hope I don't break the guitar.

Go to 1:15 mark to see his instructions on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOhH...WQI2VV4zTPIG8T
At 2:10 is what you are likely to get - not good.

Do an opposite test. Do that barre without you arm draped on the guitar at all, i.e. pure pinch. Get it clean. Think about it more as pushing your fingers down towards the thumb than the opposite.

Try quickly playing this chord progression (open C, barred F, open G): C-F-G-F-C-F-G-C, with no thumb, then with no draped arm (pure pinch), and then a combination of forces. See what works best (both fast and clean
and least fatiguing). No doubt that will be a combination of using thumb and arm pressure. For me it is mostly thumb pressure. Percentage mileage varies depending on exactly what is being played.
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  #48  
Old 03-13-2016, 11:05 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
No doubt that will be a combination of using thumb and arm pressure. For me it is mostly thumb pressure.
Me too. I even thought it was entirely thumb pressure until I checked and experimented.
For me, the right arm doesn't exactly "press", it's more just the weight of it holding the guitar against my body. There's certainly no conscious force in the arm.
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  #49  
Old 03-13-2016, 11:09 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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At 2:10 is what you are likely to get - not good.
? Sounds OK to me.
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  #50  
Old 03-13-2016, 12:18 PM
Howard Klepper Howard Klepper is offline
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I didn't read beyond the first page, so this may have been said already:

Larry's method of placing his thumb lower on the neck than where he is barring and using it as a fulcrum is wrong according to classical technique, and would be strongly discouraged by most classically trained teachers. All the ones I have seen say to place the thumb just above the barre--between the barre and the next finger. And they say not to try to either use the thumb as a fulcrum or to squeeze hard with it, but to pull against the neck with the arm while securing the body of the guitar with the right fore arm just beyond the right elbow. This way the left arm, especially the bicep, does the work rather than the thumb.

I have no doubt that Larry's method has been successful for him, but I think it ought not to be presented as The Right Way to make a barre chord. It is an unconventional way that may work for some.
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  #51  
Old 03-13-2016, 01:43 PM
paulp1960 paulp1960 is offline
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If your guitar is well setup and you've put in the years practicing you will find barre chords easy. Don't expect it to be easy if you started guitar a year ago.
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  #52  
Old 03-13-2016, 02:32 PM
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? Sounds OK to me.
Several strings muted or buzzing.
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  #53  
Old 03-13-2016, 02:38 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Originally Posted by Howard Klepper View Post
I didn't read beyond the first page, so this may have been said already:

Larry's method of placing his thumb lower on the neck than where he is barring and using it as a fulcrum is wrong according to classical technique, and would be strongly discouraged by most classically trained teachers. All the ones I have seen say to place the thumb just above the barre--between the barre and the next finger. And they say not to try to either use the thumb as a fulcrum or to squeeze hard with it, but to pull against the neck with the arm while securing the body of the guitar with the right fore arm just beyond the right elbow. This way the left arm, especially the bicep, does the work rather than the thumb.

I have no doubt that Larry's method has been successful for him, but I think it ought not to be presented as The Right Way to make a barre chord. It is an unconventional way that may work for some.
Music is more than Playing all the notes in the right order. Similarly, the physical act of playing is more than just learning a "proper" technique. I'm in the "listen a lot, sing/dance a lot, play a lot" camp and what technique I have has come from letting the music come to me through listening and (happily) playing daily.

An old musician once told me, "the first 20 years are the hard part" and in retrospect I find I agree. The second 20 years were real nice and now that I'm into the third score I must say I'm pretty satisfied...and still fascinated.

Patience, persistence, acceptance...joy.

W
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  #54  
Old 03-13-2016, 02:58 PM
Howard Klepper Howard Klepper is offline
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Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Music is more than Playing all the notes in the right order. Similarly, the physical act of playing is more than just learning a "proper" technique. I'm in the "listen a lot, sing/dance a lot, play a lot" camp and what technique I have has come from letting the music come to me through listening and (happily) playing daily.

An old musician once told me, "the first 20 years are the hard part" and in retrospect I find I agree. The second 20 years were real nice and now that I'm into the third score I must say I'm pretty satisfied...and still fascinated.

Patience, persistence, acceptance...joy.

W
I cannot understand why you quoted my post above this one, or how this helps the OP. Are you saying he should just keep playing, not ask about technique, and all will be well in 20 years?
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  #55  
Old 03-13-2016, 03:02 PM
Blaker55 Blaker55 is offline
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Been playing and learning the open chords for the past year and a half with some breaks in between in the first 6 months, but focusing much more in the last 6-8 months. Started trying barre chords in the last 2 months. Uphill all the way.

Saw this thread today and trying Larry's technique. No luck. But! Forgot to angle the guitar neck upwards towards my cheek. WOW. Takes loads of pressure off the wrist, thumb, forearm. And.... Strings really do ring!

Now need to keep at it and work on keeping fingers in position moving up and down the neck. Then, switching from E shaped to C shaped barres.

Thanks Larry and all you others.

PS: Just hearing from the others that it takes time is a big help.
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  #56  
Old 03-13-2016, 04:32 PM
saxonblue saxonblue is offline
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I'm more with Jon PR & Howard Klepper re: thumb placement, i.e. forward of the barring index finger. I was instructed that way many years ago & had the logic of it pointed out to me in the process. It makes sense to me but I suppose it's well & truly in the muscle memory now. I find having it that way:

a) makes it easy to keep the barring index finger straight & parallel to the fret

b) naturally rotates the index finger anti clockwise thereby applying the harder edge of the finger (not the fleshy front part) against the fretboard & getting clean fretting without excessive pressure & without needing to be too conscious of it.

c) leaves the remaining 3 fingers working opposite my thumb to form chords. It doesn't take a physicist's appreciation of vectors for me to realise I can achieve greater pressure against the fretboard ( & cleaner fretting) using far less energy applied with those chording fingers than would be the case if the thumb was 2 or 3" down toward the headstock than the fingers doing the work.

I briefly tried it the other way & it just doesn't work for me, may well do for others, everybody rolls differently I suppose. At any rate 35 yrs plus of old (& in this case I believe good) habits are hard to break. I'll stick with what I'm comfortable with.

Last edited by saxonblue; 03-13-2016 at 04:45 PM.
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  #57  
Old 03-13-2016, 05:21 PM
Wyllys Wyllys is offline
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Originally Posted by Howard Klepper View Post
I cannot understand why you quoted my post above this one, or how this helps the OP. Are you saying he should just keep playing, not ask about technique, and all will be well in 20 years?
Dogged adherence to any system should be questioned. I've gone back and examined my LH thumb position vis a vis chording up the neck and find it significantly different than your standard prescription. If you want to see the relationship between thumb and fingers that I (in total retrospect) find myself using, go to YouTube and watch Joe Pass. True to what has evolved for me over time, the thumb is often well behind the fingered strings.

Helping the OP can come as much from questioning hide-bound pedantry as suggesting a more natural method of discovery. One size does not fit all...and some even prefer to go naked.
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  #58  
Old 03-13-2016, 06:28 PM
Pitar Pitar is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnCambo View Post
I think it would be unusual for 8 months in to have the barre chord down. They're one of the hardest things to become accustomed to when getting back into it.

Persevere, give yourself a break emotionally and and listen to the advice already given.
This^^^^^

Make learning patience your first priority and barre chords your second. Then, after you learn to barre to your own satisfaction, apply the rule to other aspects of play you've yet to get down.

If I threw an artificial percentage at it, the rigors of learning barre chords entails 80% frustration and equal percentages each of improper technique and attempting something easier (work-around) That's going in. Strength isn't a legitimate factor. Proper technique is and it will be discovered by-and-by.

Know that there's a special shape the index finger can adopt, relative to each barre chord shape, that makes barre chords a snap. It's nuanced, though, so remove strength from the forefront of your thinking.

Each barre chord is completed by the placement of other fingers and, respectively, the index finger need not provide fretting pressure on those strings (notes). That's the entire trick to learning barre chords. Remove the thought that the index finger must fret all six strings. It doesn't. At the most 3-4 strings are required and that requires learning a mindset for each barre chord shape.

When you fret an A major barre chord shape on the 5th fret you only need to tend to the high E, B and low E strings with the index finger. The same holds true (only three strings) for the D major on that fret. The idea is your mindset will naturally shape the index finger as you anticipate and then play each barre chord.

I think you're attempting to apply a universal solution for all barre chords and that is wholly counter-productive. Each shape requires it's own adapting of the index finger. The good news is that barre chord shapes are finite in number and utilize components of other familiar open chord shapes in their construction.

Last edited by Pitar; 03-13-2016 at 06:37 PM.
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  #59  
Old 03-13-2016, 06:44 PM
Howard Klepper Howard Klepper is offline
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Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
Dogged adherence to any system should be questioned. I've gone back and examined my LH thumb position vis a vis chording up the neck and find it significantly different than your standard prescription. If you want to see the relationship between thumb and fingers that I (in total retrospect) find myself using, go to YouTube and watch Joe Pass. True to what has evolved for me over time, the thumb is often well behind the fingered strings.

Helping the OP can come as much from questioning hide-bound pedantry as suggesting a more natural method of discovery. One size does not fit all...and some even prefer to go naked.
I still can't figure out why you quoted me instead of others who were more directive. I did not prescribe--I only stated facts about the classical position for the OP to consider, and did not presume to tell the OP that there was any one right way to play. On the contrary, I objected to a method being said to be the one right way, while taking care to say that it might work well for some.

If you are calling me a hide-bound pedant for that post, I can only point out that you are overreacting and misreading me in a way I find surprising. We are talking here only about how to make a barre; not about how to be a creative musician, or even thumb position more generally.

BTW, if you watch Joe Pass play, you will notice that when barring, he drops his thumb down behind the neck in classical position.
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Last edited by Howard Klepper; 03-13-2016 at 07:13 PM.
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  #60  
Old 03-14-2016, 03:38 AM
polarred21 polarred21 is offline
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Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
[size=2]


Many thanks for pointing out varying position up and down the neck.
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