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Old 10-07-2009, 08:45 AM
Ryan Alexander Ryan Alexander is offline
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Default Recording Questions (stereo mics)

I'm finally up and running with stereo recording and I have a few questions for those of you who have been doing this a while.

At the moment, I am only recording solo instrumental acoustic music. I am using a pair of Peluso CEMC6 SDCs through an Apogee Duet in X-Y. I'm using Garageband at the moment, but I also have a copy of Logic Express 8 that I'm not familiar with yet.

1 - Using GB, I recorded to a single stereo track, which gives me 2 waveforms on the one track. Is this correct, or should I somehow be running 2 separate mono GB tracks?

2 - I tried panning each mic about 3/4 of full right and left and got what I thought were very nice results. Is this standard practice, or would you pan hard right and left? Am I getting a wider stereo field by only panning them partially?

3 - is it true that it's best to add any effects post-recording? What are people using for processing on solo fingerstyle music? I added a touch of reverb after the fact and thought that was enough, but I'm curious to hear what works for others.

4 - regarding tracking, I have been highly focused on getting perfect single pass recordings which proves to be very difficult sometimes. I find myself getting frustrated and "out of the zone" the more often I have to start over. I suppose I could re-record the passages that contain flubs and splice something together, but I think I'd have to use a metronome to make this work cleanly, no? I don't really like the idea of doing this anyway! What do you guys do?

5 - exactly how do you position your X-Y pair? Last night, I had the pair 12" or more away from the guitar with the left channel mic pointing at roughly the 7th fret and the other roughly facing the soundhole. This seems towork good, but I'm curious what others are doing.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:06 AM
Laird_Williams Laird_Williams is offline
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The decision about whether to record two mono tracks or one stereo track depends on you intention and your mic technique. With XY, you tend to do the same manipulations to both tracks. In such cases, it is far easier with most software to deal with one track.

I record 6 channels for solo guitar. The bulk of the sound, however, comes from two mics - much like yours. The catch is that I have one mic pointed at fret 12-14 (depends on the guitar) placed about 9" from the guitar. The other mic is about 3' out (arms length away) and pointed at a point on the lower bout just below the bridge. This means that, taken as-is, my recorded signal will have phasing issues if I mix the signals from the two mics. Fortunately, it is easy to realign the signals by stripping 2ms from the start of the recording of the more-distant mic. I also EQ them slightly differently. I then pan about 75% to each side and get fantastic, 3-D sounding results.

As you can see, however, it would be hard to do this if I recorded both mics into a single stereo track - since I am manipulating the tracks quite independently.

I do use FX on acoustic recording. Usually a very light touch of reverb and/or delay. I ALSO record the dry signal so I have the option of throwing away my recorded wet tracks and applying FX post-facto. (It is nice to have some FX in the monitors when recording).

Channel 1 = Fret 14 Mic (small Diaphragm condensor) through tube preamp dry
Channel 2 = Bridge Mic (small Diaphragm condensor) through tube preamp dry
Channel 3 = Large Diaphragm Condensor positions at my right ear and pointing down at the guitar
Channel 4,5 = Stereo FX through TC-Electronic G-natural. This is fed from the internal mic/pickup on the G-System. I DO record these to a stereo track.
Channel 6 = dry guitar mic/pickup, from pass-through connector of G-Natural

As for getting single-take (no punch-ins/overdubs) recordings. I like all my recordings to be single-take. But I have a terrible time getting nervous/distracted when recording. I have an odd way of dealing with it - but it works. What I do is record playing the same tune over and over for 1/2-hour to 45-minutes - on ONE file!!!! I get things set up and adjusted, start the recorder, and play the tune over and over again. Then I stop the recorder and WALK AWAY. Then I go back the next day and see if the recording contains one performance that I really like. If it does, I just "chop off" the performances I don't like and "voila", a 3-6 minute, single-pass performance. This lets me get in a zone while playing that helps me to forget that I am recording. About 10 minutes into it, it starts being more like practicing than performing or recording. My best recordings come some time after that.

Last edited by Laird_Williams; 10-07-2009 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:16 AM
wcap wcap is offline
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I'm new to this home recording thing too, and I'm also trying to get good recordings of solo fingerstyle guitar. This matter of how to get stereo sound was discussed recently in another thread (do a search for stereo and it will probably come up) - there were some great suggestions regarding microphone placement (personally though, I still have not settled on how best to do this though).

Regarding the matter of mistakes while playing, I agree that it can be exasperating. There are so many little things that can go wrong when playing a piece, and I find it hard to have a 100% clean performance. Playing a section over again later risks having the timing off, as you suggested. But what I have started to try to do when it looks like I have an otherwise really good run through a song but I have a small blunder is to repeat that section (a few measures maybe) of the piece immediately after I play the section with the blunder (and then continue on with the piece), and then chop out the section of measures containing the blunder later. This ensures that the overall flow and tempo and tone is consistent.

I'd rather just have a 100% clean performance to record, and I'm getting better at getting closer to that more of the time (and I'm becoming a better player as a result of striving for this), but sometimes you just need to cut your losses!

Last edited by wcap; 10-07-2009 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laird_Williams View Post
As for getting single-take (no punch-ins/overdubs) recordings. I like all my recordings to be single-take. But I have a terrible time getting nervous/distracted when recording. I have an odd way of dealing with it - but it works. What I do is record playing the same tune over and over for 1/2-hour to 45-minutes - on ONE file!!!! I get things set up and adjusted, start the recorder, and play the tune over and over again. Then I stop the recorder and WALK AWAY. Then I go back the next day and see if the recording contains one performance that I really like. If it does, I just "chop off" the performances I don't like and "voila", a 3-6 minute, single-pass performance. This lets me get in a zone while playing that helps me to forget that I am recording. About 10 minutes into it, it starts being more like practicing than performing or recording. My best recordings come some time after that.
I tend to do something like this too, though I suspect the precision and reliability of my playing might not be quite up to the same standards as yours, so it can be hard for me to pull off even a single run through that I am 100% happy with (but it happens sometimes!).
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Old 10-07-2009, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Ryan Alexander View Post
I'm finally up and running with stereo recording and I have a few questions for those of you who have been doing this a while.

At the moment, I am only recording solo instrumental acoustic music. I am using a pair of Peluso CEMC6 SDCs through an Apogee Duet in X-Y. I'm using Garageband at the moment, but I also have a copy of Logic Express 8 that I'm not familiar with yet.

1 - Using GB, I recorded to a single stereo track, which gives me 2 waveforms on the one track. Is this correct, or should I somehow be running 2 separate mono GB tracks?

2 - I tried panning each mic about 3/4 of full right and left and got what I thought were very nice results. Is this standard practice, or would you pan hard right and left? Am I getting a wider stereo field by only panning them partially?

3 - is it true that it's best to add any effects post-recording? What are people using for processing on solo fingerstyle music? I added a touch of reverb after the fact and thought that was enough, but I'm curious to hear what works for others.

4 - regarding tracking, I have been highly focused on getting perfect single pass recordings which proves to be very difficult sometimes. I find myself getting frustrated and "out of the zone" the more often I have to start over. I suppose I could re-record the passages that contain flubs and splice something together, but I think I'd have to use a metronome to make this work cleanly, no? I don't really like the idea of doing this anyway! What do you guys do?

5 - exactly how do you position your X-Y pair? Last night, I had the pair 12" or more away from the guitar with the left channel mic pointing at roughly the 7th fret and the other roughly facing the soundhole. This seems towork good, but I'm curious what others are doing.
Hi Ryan...
Operated/owned a small production studio for 8 years and we specialized in recording acoustic groups.

I prefer separate tracks as opposed to combined ''stereo'' tracks, and I tend to A/B record guitars (or even single mic at neck/body join) versus X/Y which is a matter of personal choice. I place the mics 14-20'' out from the guitar and aim one level with the neck/body joint and one at the sweet spot at the lower end of the guitar (lower bout).

Sometimes I record two or more tracks and discard one or more later.

I physically measure placement of each mic in a stereo take with a tape measure to be sure the distance is the same (to avoid phase issues or comb filtering).

I like to pan the rhythm track hard L-R and tend to ''place'' lead (solo) tracks or other added tracks in the stereo field where the mix calls for them.

I also take notes and usually apply the same stereo field to an entire recording project for the sake of listener continuity...

I always add effects after the fact, because when you record them on a track they are there forever...and if you have ever had to schedule and conduct a re-recording session because somebody's use of effects clashed with the rest of the session, it is a pain...and it is time consuming...and if you are being paid and made the mistake of allowing it...it's on your tab not the client's...

I had one client who insisted on using his phase pedal for a session and we progressed through it with warnings issued by me, understood by him, and it worked out fine (I got him to leave his delay pedal out).

Like others here on my personal projects - and with a few nervous clients - I have just let the recording roll for a couple three takes...unlike what I've heard here I've even lifted and combined fragments from several takes to complete a project...

When I'm engineering, I do count-ins for re-takes to be sure the tempo is the same...


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Old 10-07-2009, 11:08 AM
Ryan Alexander Ryan Alexander is offline
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Excellent responses guys, thanks very much! This gives me some good ideas.

Sounds like I should suck it up and actually learn how to use the editing features of my software! Seems silly to discard a great take because of one or two small mistakes...

I thought X-Y would be a good place to start because I don't have any intentional room treatment. That having been said, I will experiment with some A-B placements to see how it sounds in my space and how I like the difference.

Thanks again guys
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Laird_Williams View Post

I record 6 channels for solo guitar.
Interesting setup, Laird. Do you have any examples of what this all sounds like?
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Old 10-07-2009, 11:16 AM
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[SIZE="3"]
I prefer separate tracks as opposed to combined ''stereo'' tracks
Hi Larry, any explanation of why you made this choice? Do you do different EQ on each track or something? I'm guessing this depends a lot on the recording tools you're using?
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:42 PM
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I would like you guys to link to a representative guitar recording you have done (preferably solo guitar but whatever)
to see what sound you actually get and information on how you miked and FX'd for that recording.

I generally use spaced paired mikes to a single stereo track. The plugins I use such as delay, equalization and reverb
can operate on each side of the stereo track independently so that is not an issue. The biggest recording variable is
mike position both in the room and relative to the guitar.
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Old 10-07-2009, 03:25 PM
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Hi Larry, any explanation of why you made this choice? Do you do different EQ on each track or something? I'm guessing this depends a lot on the recording tools you're using?
Hi Doug...
No, I don't eq the L-R tracks differently...I tend to not EQ any tracks, but prefer to record each track well and leave them alone.

Sometimes inputs are limited when recording groups which play as a group as they record, so it's an efficiency move (conserving tracks and capturing the group sound).

Other times I just like the capability to discard a track if I need to (or use only one of the two) without going to the extra work of splitting them. My recording experience goes back to a time when tape length or computer space were premium, and we discarded everything we didn't need rather than just turning off the channel...

Sometimes the tools we use don't give us options (like a Zoom H2 or H4) because they record stereo tracks. Doesn't mean I don't split them later though.

Also, with mid/side recording, one needs mono tracks not stereo ones.

Over the years, I've recorded about as many guitarists mono (single mic) as stereo...because a lot of recordings I've done are of singer songwriters and their guitar is not as great a facet of what they do as their vocals or other instrumentalists in the band/group.

I usually give special attention and time and consideration to solo guitarists, or pianists, or violinists (etc) over ensemble players because the instrument is their voice...

One last note, on those rare occasions where I use two different styles of mics in an A/B situation - such as a small diaphragm at the neck/body joint, and a large diaphragm at the lower bout - I want more control over the final product...

Just out of curiosity, Doug, how do you record guitar tracks for non-soloist guitars?

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Old 10-07-2009, 03:50 PM
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[SIZE="3"]
Sometimes the tools we use don't give us options
I thought it might just be a work style issue. Back when I recorded with tape in the old days, there was no such thing as a stereo track, so I'd do the same as you. But these days, there are so many useful tools for operating on a single stereo track, I'd find it limiting to go the other way. From analysis tools, to editing, a united stereo track is easier to work with in the software tools I use, at least. But I can see cases where the other way would be useful.
Quote:
Also, with mid/side recording, one needs mono tracks not stereo ones.
I usually just use a MS decoder tool, which all seem to expect a stereo track. To use any of the MS plugins, I'd have to route 2 mono tracks into a stereo bus, or do my own decoding manually.

Quote:
Just out of curiosity, Doug, how do you record guitar tracks for non-soloist guitars?
That's extremely rare for me anymore. I used to do lots of band stuff, but my personal interest is solo guitar these days, and even others who sometimes stop by to record are all either solo guitar, or close enough to it that a strong stereo guitar track remains the focus. I do like MS, and its nice that it gives you a good mono track along with a good stereo track in any situatation where I might want to start panning and mixing a mono instrument. A/B works well for that, too, since the neck position often ends up being about the same as what you might use for a mono track. But again, situations where the guitar isn't the 99-100% focus - and therefore appropriate for a good stereo image - just isn't on my radar anymore.
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Old 10-07-2009, 04:28 PM
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I thought it might just be a work style issue. Back when I recorded with tape in the old days, there was no such thing as a stereo track, so I'd do the same as you. But these days, there are so many useful tools for operating on a single stereo track, I'd find it limiting to go the other way. From analysis tools, to editing, a united stereo track is easier to work with in the software tools I use, at least. But I can see cases where the other way would be useful.
Hi Doug...
I got out of the business end of recording and have taken time off from doing studio style recording back when the studio we own was still using Mac OS 9, and the software was rather primitive...

We are planning on doing some recording this winter (my gigging partner & I) so perhaps I should look into the benefits of stereo tracks.

I have a MOTU firewire interface and it came with updated versions of the software we've always used, so I imagine it will integrate some of the tools you mention...

Wow, I had no idea anyone developed a mid/side plugin tool - I've always just duplicated and reversed the phase on the side track manually then panned them hard L-R to restore/activate/create the stereo field...is there a benefit to the plugins other than speed?

Have you ever recorded two guitars from opposite sides of the mics in a mid-side array (both mics in figure 8) to capture 2 instruments rather than seating the players in front of the front facing mic in cardioid pattern?

Thanks for the dialogue...

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Old 10-07-2009, 04:46 PM
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[SIZE="3"]
Wow, I had no idea anyone developed a mid/side plugin tool - I've always just duplicated and reversed the phase on the side track manually then panned them hard L-R to restore/activate/create the stereo field...is there a benefit to the plugins other than speed?
Nope, just convenience. Pretty cool to just spin a dial and hear the width change. Voxengo makes a nice free one, a VST plugin. Logic comes with one as part of the system. I'm sure there are many others. One benefit of the tools is that you can apply MS processing to any pair of stereo tracks, most will encode as well as decode, so you can go from an X/Y track, say, convert to MS, then do MS kinds of processing, then convert back all in a plugin chain. There are a number of effects out there these days that actually do this sort of thing internally, invisibly, but with the plugins you can do it your self easily In theory you can do all this manually of coursel, but the bussing setup starts getting a lot hairier than just sticking a plugin in a track.

There are many other stereo track tools I'd hate to lose, Adobe Audition has some amazingly useful visualization tools for stereo panning visualization and phase correlation, not to mention the extremely cool frequency space editing that lets you "heal" ala photoshop squeaks, clicks, and other noises, and does the right thing with both sides of a stereo track.

Quote:
Have you ever recorded two guitars from opposite sides of the mics in a mid-side array (both mics in figure 8) to capture 2 instruments rather than seating the players in front of the front facing mic in cardioid pattern?
No, haven't tried that, seems like it would work nicely tho. I've recorded small groups semi-circled around an X/Y pair and that worked surprisingly well. MS might have been better.
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Old 10-07-2009, 05:21 PM
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...No, haven't tried that, seems like it would work nicely tho. I've recorded small groups semi-circled around an X/Y pair and that worked surprisingly well. MS might have been better.
Hi Doug...
Thanks for all the info...

I've used both mics set to figure 8 in a live setting to record the audience's responses...and it worked well.

Gotta devote some time to catching up on plug-in technology before we get too deep into our winter recording project...

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Old 10-07-2009, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan Alexander View Post
I...using a pair of Peluso CEMC6 SDC....I'm using Garageband at the moment, but I also have a copy of Logic Express 8 ...

Below is a pic of my typical mic setup, except that was in a pro studio and there’s a third mic. But those are my palusos and my stand stand that I took with me. I almost always use that A/B setup- which uses the 3 to 1 rule, or pretty close to it -because it’s very easy, predictable, and I like the way it sounds. It’s pretty open. For solo I would probably pan 75% each side.


I also use GB and logic express at home. I do think it’s best to add effects after. I don't use much, but just for home recording fun I do like the basic GB reverbs and compression. In the studio I use Protools...

Regarding tracking, sometimes you my get it all at once, sometimes you’ll use the beginning of one, and the end of the other. Editing can get deep, I try to avoid that. Practice is key. The most important thing for sure is getting an inspired performance. I’m not saying I always get that, but that’s what I shoot for. It’s easy now days to get overly concerned with perfect fidelity, perfect takes.... but I always try to remember that some of my favorite recordings -Glenn Gould’s Goldbergs in 55’, Robert Johnson, Pablo Casals' Cello Suites from the 30's... -are actually terrible sounding mono recordings by any measure, but the performances are goosebumps good. So I try to focus on being relaxed and inspired, and I’m always willing to say ”today isn't the day”, unless someone is paying for a session, then today absolutely is the day

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