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  #76  
Old 03-08-2018, 10:27 AM
Pitar Pitar is offline
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Originally Posted by jgreven View Post
I’m rarely seen in these parts as I am totally swamped with work and have a low tolerance for guitar related nonsense, but in this case, I have not alternative. I’ll have to strap on my hip waders again.

Now, I am no expert on guitar making, I do not believe there is such a person in this field, but I do have SOME direct experience with the subject matter. I built my first guitar in 1966 and am currently closing up the box on # 2349, not to mention the hundreds upon hundreds of vintage instruments I have repaired and restored over the last 50 years. But I am no expert.

I can tell you that abalone trim does not in any way effect the tone of a guitar, any more than does herringbone or plastic (with the possible exception of the early Bozo purflings).

Think about it; these trims are firmly glued to the inset channel in the edge of the top that is itself firmly glued to the liners under the top and all of these things are firmly glued to the very rigid sides of the guitar. As vibration goes, this area on the perimeter of the top is as rigid as it gets, a null point relative to the overall top motion. The tiny mass difference between a .060" abalone strip and a .060" herringbone purfling makes no difference to the sound waves moving through either, especially given the null point factor.

It is, however harder to do abalone trim than other trims. It is also more expensive and labor intensive, so the cost difference at retail is significant for a good reason. Tonally, however, every guitar is only as good as the sum of its parts and not so much in the tiny details thereof. The quality of the top is crucial to the voice of the guitar. The type of trim around it is eye candy, tonally non-participatory and a great marketing point for the maker. To think otherwise is simply misinformed foolishness.

I will say that, as a rule traditionally, the higher grade instruments like the 42's and 45's were purposely made with the best grades of tops and hand selected brace stock as opposed to the lower grades of the same models, and it is to be expected there might be a tonal difference down the road. But it ain’t the abalone trim doing that! Seriously, guys?
At 63 years old (this month) i thought this to be common knowledge 40 years ago but people have imaginations and tend to entertain them more than the logic of science in absentia. I'm still waiting for the OP to support his stance that isn't imagined.
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  #77  
Old 03-08-2018, 10:43 AM
hifivic hifivic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgreven View Post
I’m rarely seen in these parts as I am totally swamped with work and have a low tolerance for guitar related nonsense, but in this case, I have not alternative. I’ll have to strap on my hip waders again.

Now, I am no expert on guitar making, I do not believe there is such a person in this field, but I do have SOME direct experience with the subject matter. I built my first guitar in 1966 and am currently closing up the box on # 2349, not to mention the hundreds upon hundreds of vintage instruments I have repaired and restored over the last 50 years. But I am no expert.

I can tell you that abalone trim does not in any way effect the tone of a guitar, any more than does herringbone or plastic (with the possible exception of the early Bozo purflings).

Think about it; these trims are firmly glued to the inset channel in the edge of the top that is itself firmly glued to the liners under the top and all of these things are firmly glued to the very rigid sides of the guitar. As vibration goes, this area on the perimeter of the top is as rigid as it gets, a null point relative to the overall top motion. The tiny mass difference between a .060" abalone strip and a .060" herringbone purfling makes no difference to the sound waves moving through either, especially given the null point factor.

It is, however harder to do abalone trim than other trims. It is also more expensive and labor intensive, so the cost difference at retail is significant for a good reason. Tonally, however, every guitar is only as good as the sum of its parts and not so much in the tiny details thereof. The quality of the top is crucial to the voice of the guitar. The type of trim around it is eye candy, tonally non-participatory and a great marketing point for the maker. To think otherwise is simply misinformed foolishness.

I will say that, as a rule traditionally, the higher grade instruments like the 42's and 45's were purposely made with the best grades of tops and hand selected brace stock as opposed to the lower grades of the same models, and it is to be expected there might be a tonal difference down the road. But it ain’t the abalone trim doing that! Seriously, guys?
EXCELLENT POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!..................end of thread for me.
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  #78  
Old 03-08-2018, 10:57 AM
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EXCELLENT POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!..................end of thread for me.
Sure. As soon as hear what you want to hear, it high time to disregard and opinion or experience to the contrary.
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  #79  
Old 03-08-2018, 10:58 AM
Mycroft Mycroft is offline
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Originally Posted by jgreven View Post
I
Now, I am no expert on guitar making, I do not believe there is such a person in this field, but I do have SOME direct experience with the subject matter. I built my first guitar in 1966 and am currently closing up the box on # 2349, not to mention the hundreds upon hundreds of vintage instruments I have repaired and restored over the last 50 years. But I am no expert.
Don't sell yourself short, John. Some of us know who you are.
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  #80  
Old 03-08-2018, 11:02 AM
Mycroft Mycroft is offline
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Originally Posted by Pitar View Post
At 63 years old (this month) i thought this to be common knowledge 40 years ago but people have imaginations and tend to entertain them more than the logic of science in absentia. I'm still waiting for the OP to support his stance that isn't imagined.
I remember this being brought up in some guitar store 30 years ago. Maybe it was 40. And some virulent flame-wars on RMMGA for that matter.

I propose for our next topic, that we discuss how many angels can dance on the head of a pin...
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  #81  
Old 03-08-2018, 11:18 AM
hifivic hifivic is offline
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Originally Posted by Todd Yates View Post
Sure. As soon as hear what you want to hear, it high time to disregard and opinion or experience to the contrary.
He's more of an authority than me that's for sure! I said all along that the difference was more than likely the wood upgrade and better luthiers, just wasn't sure the pearl would or would not interrupt the sound plates..........I much prefer the sycamore bindings on my Lowden anyway versus the Las Vegas blingy pearl look.
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  #82  
Old 03-08-2018, 11:46 AM
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An interesting, parallel phenomena is that that the more one pays for a guitar, the better it sounds. It HAS to, right?

jgreven, thanks for wading in. I am glad you do not consider yourself an expert, but you will have to forgive your many fans if they politely disagree.

cotten
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  #83  
Old 03-08-2018, 11:50 AM
MisterMitch MisterMitch is offline
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I've read on the site of a major acoustic guitar seller, about an OM-42:
"This Martin OM-42 has forward-shifted, scalloped bracing. Both the placement of the bracing and its design creates a guitar that moves more when you play it, making it more lively, responsive, dynamic, and lighter-weight than other OM guitars."
Forgive me about my ignorance, but is it true to all 40 models ?
If it's true, doesn't that explain the difference between 40 and regular models ?
Thanks.
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  #84  
Old 03-08-2018, 11:53 AM
mcduffnw mcduffnw is offline
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Originally Posted by Todd Yates View Post
Sure. As soon as hear what you want to hear, it high time to disregard and opinion or experience to the contrary.
So Todd...in that same light...

Is it high time to disregard the opinion of a luthier who has made between a 1000 to 2,000+ more guitars than almost any other luthier, living or dead, and who was George Gruhns repair shop foreman for 5 years+ back in the beginnings of the vintage boom of the 60's/70's, doing all those repairs and restorations on those famed vintage guitars, because his opinions and experience are to the contrary of the luthiers who have built 200,300,400, guitars, but whose opinion you agree with?

duff
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  #85  
Old 03-08-2018, 12:11 PM
guitar george guitar george is offline
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There's an old saying I just made up:

Listen to everyone and believe whatever you want and do whatever you want, but, be sure to listen first.
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  #86  
Old 03-08-2018, 12:15 PM
808K 808K is offline
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Originally Posted by mcduffnw View Post
So Todd...in that same light...

Is it high time to disregard the opinion of a luthier who has made between a 1000 to 2,000+ more guitars than almost any other luthier, living or dead, and who was George Gruhns repair shop foreman for 5 years+ back in the beginnings of the vintage boom of the 60's/70's, doing all those repairs and restorations on those famed vintage guitars, because his opinions and experience are to the contrary of the luthiers who have built 200,300,400, guitars, but whose opinion you agree with?

duff
Be A Player...Not A Polisher
Duff,
Not meaning to be argumentative, but is the opinion of the luthier of whom you speak documented, in writing, anywhere? If so, it would be helpful to read it.
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  #87  
Old 03-08-2018, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcduffnw View Post
So Todd...in that same light...



Is it high time to disregard the opinion of a luthier who has made between a 1000 to 2,000+ more guitars than almost any other luthier, living or dead, and who was George Gruhns repair shop foreman for 5 years+ back in the beginnings of the vintage boom of the 60's/70's, doing all those repairs and restorations on those famed vintage guitars, because his opinions and experience are to the contrary of the luthiers who have built 200,300,400, guitars, but whose opinion you agree with?



duff

Be A Player...Not A Polisher
Of course that comment was to make a point, specifically this one...

One opinion does not constitute consensus, even when that opinion is from an experienced builder. Neither does having done something many times automatically make a person more right than someone who has done a thing fewer times. There are other experienced builders who believe the rabbet cuts and inlay around the edges do affect tone. I noted that in a previous post. I come down on the side of “some effect” not “better or worse”. Regardless, I’m willing to listen to other opinions. I don’t automatically call for cutting off debate as soon as someone weighs in with a response that suits me.
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  #88  
Old 03-08-2018, 01:12 PM
hifivic hifivic is offline
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Originally Posted by 808K View Post
Duff,
Not meaning to be argumentative, but is the opinion of the luthier of whom you speak documented, in writing, anywhere? If so, it would be helpful to read it.

http://www.grevenguitars.com/bio.html

............go to post #77 in this thread.
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  #89  
Old 03-08-2018, 01:15 PM
robj144 robj144 is offline
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This is akin to asking if putting a decal on my bumper would change the characteristics of how well my car drives. Sure, microscopically speaking, it every so slightly changes the aerodynamics and it adds a tiny bit of mass, but that's really going to be perceivable.

Same goes for appointments on a guitar.
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  #90  
Old 03-08-2018, 01:18 PM
robj144 robj144 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 808K View Post
Duff,
Not meaning to be argumentative, but is the opinion of the luthier of whom you speak documented, in writing, anywhere? If so, it would be helpful to read it.
It's a few posts above yours in writing.
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