stradivarius violins fail another blind test

[ecguitar44]

Originally Posted by Paikon

As i said earlier its about preference . If you dont like the sound of a Torres all the other characteristics of the instrument dont matter.
Its like the paintings of Picasso or Pollock.

Whether I prefer Picasso or Pollock I can instantly identify their work. They are easily distinguishable from each other.

It doesn't matter if I "like" how a Torres sounds. I should be able to identify a Torres guitar (or a Stradivari violin) in a double-blind experiment. But I can't. And, apparently, experts cannot either.

Again...it's NOT preference. I might (or might not) like peanut butter...but I can identify it when comparing it to mustard.

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by ecguitar44

Again...it's NOT preference. I might (or might not) like peanut butter...but I can identify it when comparing it to mustard.

If you have tasted peanut butter you can identify it, otherwise you cant.

As for Picasso and Pollock , i wasnt talking about identification but about greatness. Why are they great? Because we liked them.... PREFERENCE.

[DanPanther]

I highly doubt that someone that paid $6,000,000.00 for a Stradivari Violin, is going to admit it sucks.

Dan

[ecguitar44]

Originally Posted by Paikon

If you have tasted peanut butter you can identify it, otherwise you cant.

As for Picasso and Pollock , i wasnt talking about identification but about greatness. Why are they great? Because we liked them.... PREFERENCE.

If I've never tasted peanut butter I know that it's DIFFERENT than mustard. I can easily say, "Hey, these aren't the same!"

The results of the study show that these "experts" could not say "Hey, these are the same/different" in any statistically significant way.

The participants could not distinguish a Stradivari violin (peanut butter) from a modern violin (mustard).

I think the analogy should be, "Can you distinguish between these mustards where one is made from seeds from Denmark while the other has seeds from India."

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by ecguitar44

If I've never tasted peanut butter I know that it's DIFFERENT than mustard. I can easily say, "Hey, these aren't the same!"

The results of the study show that these "experts" could not say "Hey, these are the same/different" in any statistically significant way.

The participants could not distinguish a Stradivari violin (peanut butter) from a modern violin (mustard).

I think the analogy should be, "Can you distinguish between these mustards where one is made from seeds from Denmark while the other has seeds from India."

So if you try peanut butter from different companies or different varieties of peanuts can you say which is which?

You ll choose what you like, right? and the others are just peanut butter

[ecguitar44]

Originally Posted by Paikon

So if you try peanut butter from different companies or different varieties of peanuts can you say which is which?

For sure.

And I can pass the Coke/Pepsi test with flying colors.

But I don't think I could do well in a listening test with plastic bridge pins vs bone pins...or closed gear tuners vs open geared tuners...or a Stradivari violin vs a Gusset. And I'm basing that on the fact that study after study has show. That "experts" can't identify them either.

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by ecguitar44

Whether I prefer Picasso or Pollock I can instantly identify their work. They are easily distinguishable from each other.

It doesn't matter if I "like" how a Torres sounds. I should be able to identify a Torres guitar (or a Stradivari violin) in a double-blind experiment. But I can't. And, apparently, experts cannot either.

Again...it's NOT preference. I might (or might not) like peanut butter...but I can identify it when comparing it to mustard.

I'm a bit torn about this. To me, it's not what I can identify sitting and listening to an instrument, rather what I can hear when I play and how it inspires me.

I have a Roland GR-55, and while some sounds are so-so, some of the models are very well done; so much so that I've fooled more than a couple people on some demoes and recordings. But it just don't "feel" right. I can emulate a Strat, Tele, LP, L-4, jumbo, 12 string, coming through virtually any amp. And the sound's good, but not too convincing under the fingers. Moreso with the MIDI instruments. I can "sound" like a Kenny G's sax, and can even bend notes and get that "airy" sound, but it's just not the same as playing an actual sax.

As to violins - just because it's a Stradivarius doesn't mean it's a good sounding one. There are very few surviving Stradivari violins, and of those, few that are actually playable...

The amount of testers was too small (only 10) and it was a narrow margin of victory (6 to 4). The only thing this test tells me, is I should have been a research scientist, because to get a grant to do such ridiculous research that really is fruitless and inconclusive. Next up - research scientists find people eat with their eyes....

[ecguitar44]

Originally Posted by Paikon

You ll choose what you like, right? and the others are just peanut butter

I see you added this while I was responding...

No, I wouldn't pick what I would like. I'd distinguish between them. If you gave me 3 spoonfuls of peanut butter (YUM!) and said 2 of them are JIF and 1 of them is Peter Pan, I could say which was which.

Like the violins...half the time folks guessed they were a Stradivari...half the time they guessed they weren't a Stradivari. Id do better with peanut butter.

Can we PLEASE do the peanut butter test?

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by ecguitar44

I see you added this while I was responding...

No, I wouldn't pick what I would like. I'd distinguish between them. If you gave me 3 spoonfuls of peanut butter (YUM!) and said 2 of them are JIF and 1 of them is Peter Pan, I could say which was which.

Like the violins...half the time folks guessed they were a Stradivari...half the time they guessed they weren't a Stradivari. Id do better with peanut butter.

Can we PLEASE do the peanut butter test?

OK then. like you violin players can identify any violin if they 've try them and know which is which from before.

[ecguitar44]

Originally Posted by Paikon

OK then. like you violin players can identify any violin if they 've try them and know which is which from before.

Not identify. Differentiate.

Ok, back to delicious peanut butter. We have a new experiment. If you gave me 3 spoonfuls of peanut butter and said 2 of them are brand X and 1 of them is brand Y, I could say which is which.

I suppose this scenario is more indicative of the Stradivari experiment. Although some of the players did have experience with Stradivari violins and I'd hope would have a highly trained ear.

[ecguitar44]

By the way, I just got a spoonful of peanut butter to enjoy while I await your response.

Unfortunately, I'm about to turn in for the night. So, if I'm still invigorated on this subject, we can continue when the sun rises again.

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by ecguitar44

Not identify. Differentiate.

Ok, back to delicious peanut butter. We have a new experiment. If you gave me 3 spoonfuls of peanut butter and said 2 of them are brand X and 1 of them is brand Y, I could say which is which.

I suppose this scenario is more indicative of the Stradivari experiment. Although some of the players did have experience with Stradivari violins and I'd hope would have a highly trained ear.

If a violin player has two or twenty violins do you think that he / she cant tell which is which?

[ecguitar44]

Originally Posted by Paikon

If a violin player has two or twenty violins do you think that he / she cant tell which is which?

Hmmm...good question. I'd suppose I'd have to say "yes they could".

So I see your point in regards to the test.

However, Stradivari violins have been considered rather superior to any/most/all other violins for the past 300 years. They've been x-rayed, measured, scraped, prodded, weighed, microscopically analyzed, etc.

My expectation would be that they have such a history of being lauded as "superior" that you'd assume they'd be readily distinguishable from other violins.

I'm not sure I'm ready to accept the argument of, "Well, if you own and play a Stradivari then (and only then) will you be able to hear how it's better."

[t9c]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

I'm a bit torn about this. To me, it's not what I can identify sitting and listening to an instrument, rather what I can hear when I play and how it inspires me.

As to violins - just because it's a Stradivarius doesn't mean it's a good sounding one. There are very few surviving Stradivari violins, and of those, few that are actually playable...

The amount of testers was too small (only 10) and it was a narrow margin of victory (6 to 4). The only thing this test tells me, is I should have been a research scientist, because to get a grant to do such ridiculous research that really is fruitless and inconclusive. Next up - research scientists find people eat with their eyes....

This! And since this researher is also a violin builder, well you know what they say about studies being able to prove anything the ones footing the bill want them to prove.

I did not see any mention of which Stradivarius violin was used in the study. Could be one not made by Antonio which also would not be one that is a revered Strad.

[Paikon]

Originally Posted by ecguitar44

I'm not sure I'm ready to accept the argument of, "Well, if you own and play a Stradivari then (and only then) will you be able to hear how it's better."

I think that stands for every instrument...you 'll have to play it for a long time to evaluate it.