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  #1  
Old 08-31-2021, 11:26 AM
woodymckenzie woodymckenzie is offline
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Default Composite guitars by individual builders

Are carbon fiber and/or composite guitars being built by individual makers? Do you know of any? I'm a builder who likes to experiment with different materials, but I'm really just a hobbyist. I did build a double topped dulcimer once using Nomex and a vacuum press and have used carbon fiber neck reinforcements on mandolins. I even have a carbon fiber fingerboard on one of my fiddles. I understand that the tooling for having a guitar mould would be prohibitively expensive for someone like me, but I have to wonder if there aren't alternative approaches that are less expensive. Thanks for any info or leads you might provide!
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Old 08-31-2021, 02:37 PM
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Woody;

I can't be specific, but yes, there are a number of individuals who have produced CF guitars and in ways that did not cost a fortune in molds. Some specific examples were noted in the old McNichol Carbon Fiber Guitar Forum. I don't know if that forum is still accessible but there are people on this forum who were on that forum and may remember some specific examples.
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Old 09-01-2021, 12:32 AM
tdq tdq is offline
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There was a guy here in Australia that made a few archtops from CF - it was quite a while ago and can't find anything now. So not much help, sorry, other than it has been done...
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Old 09-01-2021, 12:53 PM
woodymckenzie woodymckenzie is offline
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I've found Canna guitars and they make bodies from ground up hemp fiber called Hempstone. I've also watched a couple of DIY videos that built internal moulds that incorporated the back, sides and neck and then add the top afterwards, but these have been done by people that don't seem to know a lot about acoustics. I have to wonder if there isn't some kind of engineering material out there that is relatively easy to use and moldable.
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Old 09-01-2021, 02:41 PM
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I spent quite a bit of time checking out Canna guitars. I think the design is stunning and I was almost at the point of ordering one but ended up skeptical about the durability of a concrete guitar. That doesn't mean they are not good--I just had my doubts.

I went on line an looked up "how to build a carbon fiber guitar" and found a lot of available information. If you pursue the search and end up making a CF guitar I hope you report your progress here.
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Old 09-02-2021, 08:34 PM
DDW DDW is offline
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There are videos on the Blackbird site of molding the back, sides and back of neck all in one (expensive looking) female mold, then gluing the front on. Seems to work for them.....
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Old 09-04-2021, 07:55 AM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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The "Burls Art" video is a pretty good example of someone who's a newbie at CF making a usable guitar.

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Old 09-04-2021, 09:29 AM
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Rudy;

This is a very interesting video. It looks like a lot of work and it seems like there should be an easier way. I also wonder how much money is in the materials and what the difference would be between the materials cost and the price of an inexpensive CF instrument? Thank you for this contribution.
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Old 09-04-2021, 12:47 PM
DDW DDW is offline
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Also interesting are the Composite Acoustics factory tour videos still on Youtube.

I know very little about guitar construction but a fair amount about carbon fiber boat/aircraft construction. It is a bit surprising to me that pre-preg carbon isn't used for this. CA was doing infusion but pre-pregs would be better.

Despite the claim that every piece of wood is different and carbon should be more consistent, the opposite is more likely in hand laid up carbon. If you look inside the Journey you can see what I mean. High end carbon layup would be pre-preg materials cut to templates or even on CNC, placed and de-bulked with a vacuum bag, then cured in an autoclave. The thicknesses and weights would be very consistent and predictable. I know a luthier who is building carbon banjos this way and the results are pretty spectacular.

I wonder how Emerald is doing it?

The materials costs are probably not significantly different, and probably less for the carbon vs high end wood. In either case the labor must be the major cost component.
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Old 09-04-2021, 02:45 PM
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DDW:

I've always felt that the labor costs of CF were significant and I've wondered why we haven't seen more CF guitars coming from the East?
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Old 09-04-2021, 02:47 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Personally, I would prefer to buy a carbon fiber guitar from a factory that has made a lot of them and has their manufacturing process down to a science so that the quality is consistently very high (McPherson, Emerald, Rainsong, etc.). What I have read seems to indicate that carbon fiber is not particularly easy to work with, so I would not want to chance it.

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Old 09-04-2021, 03:24 PM
jdinco jdinco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbeltrans View Post
Personally, I would prefer to buy a carbon fiber guitar from a factory that has made a lot of them and has their manufacturing process down to a science so that the quality is consistently very high (McPherson, Emerald, Rainsong, etc.). What I have read seems to indicate that carbon fiber is not particularly easy to work with, so I would not want to chance it.

Tony
I agree, and it seems you would be working with some hazardous materials and a lot of nasty fumes too. Something I want no part of. Mainly because I tend to be overly sensitive to stuff like that.
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Old 09-04-2021, 07:14 PM
DDW DDW is offline
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The materials aren't really that hazardous, epoxy isn't very stinky, but certainly the sanding or machining dust is bad to breath and irritating to the skin. On the other hand here in California if I buy a stick of oak at Home Depot, it has a Prop 65 label on ("wood dust is known to the State of California to cause cancer...").

One of the issues with molding a guitar is it requires tooling (the mold) which cannot be cycled particularly quickly. A wood guitar might need some fixturing but that is cheap, duplicate it 20 times and build 20 in parallel. With one mold you have it tied up for potentially several days to build one guitar. If you look at the Composite Acoustics video you can see their tooling which is probably the minimum rudimentary bits you need, it is fairly extensive. There are some videos of the Blackbird tool for building their Ekoa guitars, it is a complex piece.
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Old 09-04-2021, 07:18 PM
Rudy4 Rudy4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
Rudy;

This is a very interesting video. It looks like a lot of work and it seems like there should be an easier way. I also wonder how much money is in the materials and what the difference would be between the materials cost and the price of an inexpensive CF instrument? Thank you for this contribution.
it simply demonstrates that there is a ton of room for composites in guitar construction. We're not there yet.

Consider "Bcomp Amplitex", epoxy impregnated Flax fabric that serves as a "natural" alternative to carbon graphite.

https://www.bcomp.ch/products/amplitex/

It's already seen in the guitar world in the offerings from Blackbird guitars. (Blackbird has named their linen (flax) epoxy material "Ekoa".)

https://www.wired.com/2016/05/3000-g...ays-like-wood/

Do check out some of the high end uses for this product. I think the natural fiber composites hold a ton of promise for guitars and other instruments.

Last edited by Rudy4; 09-04-2021 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 09-04-2021, 07:28 PM
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Rudy;

I'm very familiar with Blackbird's Ekoa products--I have the Savoy. Jeff Farr (Strumalot) on the forum tried nylons on the Savoy and led me to giving it a try--incredible. The Savoy is the only guitar I've experience that is good with both steel and nylon strings. My Savoy is now at Blackbird central getting a string tie bridge and set up for nylon strings.
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