A Question For Pilots....

[Wadcutter]

...or anyone who has knowledge on this topic. I live pretty close to a general aviation airport and consequently I see a lot of Leer jets coming and going all day. As I was sitting out in my backyard earlier today murdering empty beer cans with my trusty CO2 powered Colt Single Action Army pellet gun, I was thinking to myself as this awesome Leer jet took off, in an emergency, say like both pilot and co-pilot of a commercial airliner became incapacitated for whatever reason, could a Leer jet pilot take the controls of maybe a 737 and take it down from altitude for a safe landing, or does that require a skill set above and beyond that of a Leer jet pilot? One wonders. 🤔

[patrickgm60]

I'm only a private pilot, but my son is working toward an airline pilot career, so I follow the profession, a bit.

Corporate jets and airliners require different "type ratings," but same licenses. Given time to find the correct controls and information for the particular airport, I suspect there would be a very high likelihood of a painless landing, for all.

[RussL30]

I’m no expert and can’t really answer your question but I did a ton of research on emergency situations and disasters for my recent first flight and dealing with my fear of flying.

I think in your scenario, it becomes more about knowledge of each plane’s computer systems than the pilot’s physical ability to fly. I don’t know how Lear Jets compare with Boeings or Airbuses but I think a 737 or Lear jet pilot would have a lot of trouble landing something like an A320 since it’s fly by wire and so technologically advanced. Maybe an A320 or Lear jet pilot would have a chance to land a 737 since it isn’t quite as computerized as the A320 but I’d think it would still be difficult deciphering the computer systems and controls.

[Wadcutter]

Originally Posted by RussL30

I’m no expert and can’t really answer your question but I did a ton of research on emergency situations and disasters for my recent first flight and dealing with my fear of flying.

I think in your scenario, it becomes more about knowledge of each plane’s computer systems than the pilot’s physical ability to fly. I don’t know how Lear Jets compare with Boeings or Airbuses but I think a 737 or Lear jet pilot would have a lot of trouble landing something like an A320 since it’s fly by wire and so technologically advanced. Maybe an A320 or Lear jet pilot would have a chance to land a 737 since it isn’t quite as computerized as the A320 but I’d think it would still be difficult deciphering the computer systems and controls.

Yeah, I suspect something like an A320 could be a real can of worms for a Leer jet pilot.

[Richgj3]

I’m a flight Instructor for single engine land and instrument. I was able to land an A320 simulator with coaching. These airplanes are so automated that I think if all you know how to do is use the radio, you could land it. Absolutely any corporate jet pilot could do it without coaching.

Rich

[Kerbie]

I've had my ATP for over 25 years and have flown the A320 for almost a decade. Like any other profession, not all pilots have the same skills even if they have earned the same certificates and are type rated on the same planes.

Originally Posted by Wadcutter

could a Leer jet pilot take the controls of maybe a 737 and take it down from altitude for a safe landing, or does that require a skill set above and beyond that of a Leer jet pilot?

Probably so. In a real emergency, the Lear pilot could easily take the seat, fly straight and level for a while and call Air Traffic Control to ask for help. Lears are some of the fastest business jets around, so they would have no problem with an airliner's speed. Most of the concepts are very similar, but switches and controls are in different places and sometimes have different names. The critical speeds of each jet are different and procedures and checklists are different. ATC could find emergency help and provide someone to talk the Lear pilot through the approach and landing. My guess is that a good Lear pilot, with help from ATC, could make a safe touchdown without damaging the people or aircraft.

The A320 would be a bit trickier. It's a European plane that is quite different in design from a Boeing. It has some unusual flight modes within its automation system and it has a stick instead of a yoke, but the basic concepts of flight are the same. It takes longer to get comfortable with it than any other plane I've ever flown, but when you understand all of its oddball systems and automation modes, it's an absolute joy to fly. It has a reputation as a plane pilots have to stay ahead of... if your thinking and planning get behind its speed, it'll bite you like no other. Flying most airliners, and especially the 320, is very much like being a systems manager. But in an emergency, I think most folks would say turn off the automation and fly it like any other airplane. Its flight characteristics are wonderful.

I always thought I could land any airliner I wanted to land and everybody would walk away. If I had never been in the plane before, it might not be the prettiest landing of my career, but the gear would be down and it would be safe.

[Mr. Jelly]

The one Lear jet pilot I knew flew other jets before he got into flying private jets. He did go back to commercial jets. He got tired of sitting around hotels waiting for a call to go somewhere else.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by Wadcutter

...or anyone who has knowledge on this topic. I live pretty close to a general aviation airport and consequently I see a lot of Leer jets coming and going all day. As I was sitting out in my backyard earlier today murdering empty beer cans with my trusty CO2 powered Colt Single Action Army pellet gun, I was thinking to myself as this awesome Leer jet took off, in an emergency, say like both pilot and co-pilot of a commercial airliner became incapacitated for whatever reason, could a Leer jet pilot take the controls of maybe a 737 and take it down from altitude for a safe landing, or does that require a skill set above and beyond that of a Leer jet pilot? One wonders. 🤔

Lots of answers already so nothing to add .....BUT

I would have to ask how in the world did Wadcutter go from kill shots on beer cans, to bilateral heart attacks for Airline pilots

[GHS]

Originally Posted by Mr. Jelly

The one Lear jet pilot I knew flew other jets before he got into flying private jets. He did go back to commercial jets. He got tired of sitting around hotels waiting for a call to go somewhere else.

Wow...isn't that the truth. People think its an exciting glamours profession. While there are times it can be and there is great skill and responsibility involved, lots of time the boredom is insane. Not my experience but one of an old friend of mine who flew private to Europe, the Middle East, and S. America for business types. Europe was fine but the others???, cant leave the hotel for fear of bodily harm, kidnappings, random street shootings, just insane.

[Wadcutter]

Originally Posted by Kerbie

I've had my ATP for over 25 years and have flown the A320 for almost a decade. Like any other profession, not all pilots have the same skills even if they have earned the same certificates and are type rated on the same planes.



Probably so. In a real emergency, the Lear pilot could easily take the seat, fly straight and level for a while and call Air Traffic Control to ask for help. Lears are some of the fastest business jets around, so they would have no problem with an airliner's speed. Most of the concepts are very similar, but switches and controls are in different places and sometimes have different names. The critical speeds of each jet are different and procedures and checklists are different. ATC could find emergency help and provide someone to talk the Lear pilot through the approach and landing. My guess is that a good Lear pilot, with help from ATC, could make a safe touchdown without damaging the people or aircraft.

The A320 would be a bit trickier. It's a European plane that is quite different in design from a Boeing. It has some unusual flight modes within its automation system and it has a stick instead of a yoke, but the basic concepts of flight are the same. It takes longer to get comfortable with it than any other plane I've ever flown, but when you understand all of its oddball systems and automation modes, it's an absolute joy to fly. It has a reputation as a plane pilots have to stay ahead of... if your thinking and planning get behind its speed, it'll bite you like no other. Flying most airliners, and especially the 320, is very much like being a systems manager. But in an emergency, I think most folks would say turn off the automation and fly it like any other airplane. Its flight characteristics are wonderful.

I always thought I could land any airliner I wanted to land and everybody would walk away. If I had never been in the plane before, it might not be the prettiest landing of my career, but the gear would be down and it would be safe.

Really interesting and informative post Kerbie, thanks. Kerbie am I thinking of some other aircraft or was it an A320 about 15 years or so ago that was shown on video tape coming in for a landing somewhere, overshot the runway and crashed and burned in a grove of trees just past the runway. I’m thinking it was an A320 but I could be wrong. I don’t recall what the official cause of the crash was or if it was an A320, but as a white knuckle flyer, I still have that video in my head.

[Kerbie]

Originally Posted by Wadcutter

Really interesting and informative post Kerbie, thanks. Kerbie am I thinking of some other aircraft or was it an A320 about 15 years or so ago that was shown on video tape coming in for a landing somewhere, overshot the runway and crashed and burned in a grove of trees just past the runway. I’m thinking it was an A320 but I could be wrong. I don’t recall what the official cause of the crash was or if it was an A320, but as a white knuckle flyer, I still have that video in my head.

You're correct, Wad, although I think you're talking about the 1988 Air France crash at a French airshow. Here's the Wiki and the video.



There were several things that went wrong in that situation as there are in most crashes. The 320 really is kinda odd for most pilots. That's why I think most corporate pilots would want some help to land it in an emergency. The automation actually has sorta several levels. Even if you turn the autopilot off and think you're flying, it has some built-in protections that you really need to understand or the plane can resist your efforts.

I know of a 320 that came 400' from landing in the Mississippi simply because the pilots didn't understand the descent modes of the airplane. They were not able to spool up the engines when they wanted because their brains were in a different descent mode from the airplane. Like I said, it's tricky... but tons of fun!

[RussL30]

Originally Posted by Wadcutter

Really interesting and informative post Kerbie, thanks. Kerbie am I thinking of some other aircraft or was it an A320 about 15 years or so ago that was shown on video tape coming in for a landing somewhere, overshot the runway and crashed and burned in a grove of trees just past the runway. I’m thinking it was an A320 but I could be wrong. I don’t recall what the official cause of the crash was or if it was an A320, but as a white knuckle flyer, I still have that video in my head.

Are you thinking of Air France flight 296 which was the first flight of the A320?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_296


Ah Kirby beat me to it. I’ve become fascinated with planes, flying and disasters while overcoming and facing my fear of flying. I’m glad Kerbie has chimed in. It’s great hearing a pilot’s perspective on things like this.

[Kerbie]

That's it, Russ. I think it was the first passenger flight, but not the first flight. Most of the passengers were corporate folks and guests. It was not a standard Air France revenue flight. Not a good ending though.

[cmd612]

Originally Posted by KevWind

I would have to ask how in the world did Wadcutter go from kill shots on beer cans, to bilateral heart attacks for Airline pilots

Maybe he was thinking of this recent thread? (But it wasn't heart attacks. They both had the fish.)

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=531441

[Wadcutter]

Originally Posted by cmd612

Maybe he was thinking of this recent thread? (But it wasn't heart attacks. They both had the fish.)

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...d.php?t=531441

I can only say guys, that after a half hour of plugging beer cans with .22 cal pellets, well, the mind starts to wander. 😂