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  #61  
Old 05-12-2020, 10:32 AM
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Lkristians Lkristians is offline
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Default Vinko Bogataj

"The Agony of Defeat"

The skier in the open of Wide World of Sports.
youtu.be/jKEDD1i4oGk



Not a great achievement, but he certainly gained fame!
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  #62  
Old 05-12-2020, 01:59 PM
Dru Edwards Dru Edwards is offline
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Sorry all, I gotta go back almost 60 years, not 50. But Wilt Chamberlain averaging over 50 points per game for an entire NBA season is the most amazing individual achievement I've ever heard of in sports. There was only one other season when a player averaged over 40 points per game - also Wilt Chamberlain. There were a total of ten seasons where the leading scorer averaged more than 35 points per gam - FIVE of those were also Wilt. And don't forget that during all of those record setting seasons he was matched up very frequently against the most dominant defensive big man in NBA history, Bill Russell. So he did that playing against the defender who held him lower than anyone else ever could have. AND, he was a terrible free throw shooter, which cost him several points most games because he was fouled a lot because of that achilles heel... BTW, that was also the season where he scored 100 points in a single game, another record nobody else has ever come close to...

For a whole career, I don't think anyone with the possible exception of Eddie Merckx (the Belgian cyclist mentioned earlier) has come close. There have been a lot of amazing feats, but to average 50 points per game for a season, which is more than 25% higher than the next highest player ever averaged, is beyond belief. I think that's gotta be the greatest single season anyone has ever had in any sport...

-Ray
Hey Ray, +1 on Wilt Chamberlain. It's amazing what Wilt was able to accomplish, especially when you consider how much ahead he was of his peers.

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It certainly doesn’t rise to the accomplishments of many greats, but I’ll mention the Jamaican national bobsleigh team during their debut in the 1988 Winter Olympic Games four-man bobsled in Calgary, Alberta where they were seen as underdogs (and even a joke) as they represented a tropical nation in a winter sport. It sure was a big deal for the people of that tiny country. They’ve carried-on in subsequent years, but I think they’ve since stopped due to lack of funding.
I'm glad you mentioned it, Tom. It gain international attention. Same with Eddie the Eagle during those same Olympics. Remember that name? I had to Google to confirm - He was the first Great Britain ski-jumper in the Olympics since 1928. He finished last in a couple of events but he was very popular.
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  #63  
Old 05-12-2020, 02:02 PM
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Yep Dru, those two examples are kinda what the Olympics are (or should be) about at a very fundamental level.
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  #64  
Old 05-12-2020, 02:53 PM
reeve21 reeve21 is offline
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My vote has to go to Lee Trevino. ”

He’s a true champion in golf and in life.
I love Lee Trevino. In 1969 I was 11 and had just started caddying at my local course. The PGA tour came through town every Labor Day. My dad would drop me and my brother off at the course on his way to work. We made friends with Lee's touring caddy, we would get his drinks and hot dogs for him. In those days you could go inside the ropes during practice rounds and stand right next to the golfers on the driving range.

The practice rounds were the best. We literally stood right next to him and listened in on everything that was said. Lee Trevino treated us wonderfully, even though looking back we probably made pests out of ourselves. This went on for a few years, then Lee won the tournament in 1972 and got extremely popular, so we found a couple of younger guys to pester during the practice rounds. Their names were Johnny Miller and Grier Jones. We were the only gallery they had. Then Johnny won the US Open with a record low score on the final day.

Later on we both got to caddy (for others) in the tournament, but Lee remained our favorite.

Lee earned everything he got. Even after all his success, he would go and run laps at the local track after a long day at the course to keep his legs in shape.

Everybody talks about Jack winning the Masters at age 46. Lee was 44 when he won his final major and final tour win, the PGA, after not winning anything in over 3 years. He was the best shotmaker I ever saw.

I just can't tell you how much I admire the man.
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  #65  
Old 05-12-2020, 03:16 PM
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Mainly for Dru...

I spent my boyhood years in Halifax, Nova Scotia in the Armdale area not far from the rotary, and just down the tracks from the Ashburn Golf Course. From the time I could escape my mother’s apron strings to venture a bit on my own and with friends, apart from school and especially in the summer, I spent just about every waking moment outside the fence at hole #5 waiting for balls to sail over the fence of the dogleg hole. The young boys would race and fight over the balls to either sell back to the golfer, or to others later. I had a pretty good bank account as a kid.

Anyhow, I vividly recall one summer day back in the early ‘60s when for whatever reason, Arnold Palmer and Gary Player were in Halifax and played a round at the Ashburn, and there I was with my friends watching them come down the fairway and onto the green at hole #5. That was quite a thrill.

Now in my 60s, whenever we return to Halifax to visit family, I always visit hole #5 and won’t leave until I find at least one ball. I always come away with at least five. I just love the nostalgia of it. Last summer’s visit, I sold a golfer’s ball back to him. Actually, I wanted a dime like back in the old days, but he wasn’t carrying change, so I gave it to him. As he returned to his group, I heard him say to them...”Hey, there’s a guy in the bushes there who just gave me back my ball!”
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  #66  
Old 05-12-2020, 03:24 PM
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Great story! Sounds like something I would have done.
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  #67  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:19 AM
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Alex Honnold. El Cap.
Absolutely and without a doubt! This was so beyond what anyone had accomplished to that point in the sport of climbing. Also, I don't think any of the other mentions faced certain death at every second.
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  #68  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:33 AM
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Absolutely and without a doubt! This was so beyond what anyone had accomplished to that point in the sport of climbing. Also, I don't think any of the other mentions faced certain death at every second.
There's a certain mentality that goes along with free climbing that's either really impressive or really insane or both. But the actual climbing of El Cap is not more physically difficult or impressive with no ropes than with ropes. It's got a MUCH higher mental/emotional level of commitment and risk for sure.

I spent a few days back in the early 80's hanging out with Warren Harding, who was the leader of the first team that climbed El Cap back in 1958, a year before I was born. I personally find a first ascent more impressive than a free climb, because nobody knows if it can even be done, until it IS. With free climbing, you're generally doing something that's been done many times before, just with NO protection and enormous downside.

By the time I got to know Warren, he wasn't climbing but he sure was drinking. And he was still a great guy, with a wild sense of humor and liked to have a good time. I was living in Telluride and most of my friends seemed to be climbers, even though I had NONE of that gene in my body. I don't like heights! There was a mountain film festival in town that summer and Warren was a featured guest / speaker. I don't remember him speaking much, but he hung out for the whole festival. I lived in a house with a bunch of climbers, one of whom was pretty involved in the film festival, and Warren stayed in a spare bedroom. Since he and I were the only folks in the house who were NOT climbing at that point (he was near 60 and, as noted, often wasted or hungover) we ended up hanging out a lot, sometime as the base of some boulders that all of the other guys were climbing.

I don't know how I always seemed to end up around climbers. A bunch of my college friends were big mountain guys too, and I spent a year with Willie Unsoeld as my teacher and academic advisor in 77-78, just a year before he died on Ranier. He was a really amazing man with a great family, who I was loosely in touch with for a few years after his death. He was in the first American group to summit Everest in '63 and I believe the first to try a particularly tough route. One of his partners on that climb, Tom Horbein, had a daughter who I shared an office with in the late '80's in a field that absolutely NOTHING to do with climbing.

Strange to think about all these years later. As far as I know, none of my current group of friends are climbers, or ever were climbers... But in my youth, I always seemed to be around them. And I wanted less than nothing to do with the activity itself.

-Ray
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Last edited by Acousticado; 05-14-2020 at 10:49 AM. Reason: Please don’t try and skirt the rules against profanity
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  #69  
Old 05-14-2020, 11:02 AM
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Hard to knock any of the achievements mentioned and it’s fun to revisit the ones I know and remember, as well as the ones in sports I am less familiar with. Secretariat and Beamon are certainly at the top of any list I could come up with. Going beyond the 50 years as has been done here once or twice and is fun too, I would think Jackie Robinson’s playing for the Dodgers comes to mind.

Jeff
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Old 05-14-2020, 11:42 AM
emtsteve emtsteve is offline
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Ray - great stories, thanks for sharing. I am NOT a climber either. In fact, I love Colorado but struggle a bit with vertigo when confronted with big exposure. I sure do admire those who have the physical and mental skills to do big mountain climbing.

With the El Cap climb, I think it was the level of commitment I was impressed with most. Sure the physical moves are great but to start that climb knowing you were either going to get to the top or most likely die trying is amazing. Alex Honnold may be a bit crazy but he seems like a neat kid. Sure hope he doesn't crash and burn. But then again, he is doing what he loves at a world class level - how many of us can say that?
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  #71  
Old 05-14-2020, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by raysachs View Post
There's a certain mentality that goes along with free climbing that's either really impressive or really insane or both. But the actual climbing of El Cap is not more physically difficult or impressive with no ropes than with ropes. It's got a MUCH higher mental/emotional level of commitment and risk for sure.

I spent a few days back in the early 80's hanging out with Warren Harding, who was the leader of the first team that climbed El Cap back in 1958, a year before I was born. I personally find a first ascent more impressive than a free climb, because nobody knows if it can even be done, until it IS. With free climbing, you're generally doing something that's been done many times before, just with NO protection and enormous downside.

By the time I got to know Warren, he wasn't climbing but he sure was drinking. And he was still a great guy, with a wild sense of humor and liked to have a good time. I was living in Telluride and most of my friends seemed to be climbers, even though I had NONE of that gene in my body. I don't like heights! There was a mountain film festival in town that summer and Warren was a featured guest / speaker. I don't remember him speaking much, but he hung out for the whole festival. I lived in a house with a bunch of climbers, one of whom was pretty involved in the film festival, and Warren stayed in a spare bedroom. Since he and I were the only folks in the house who were NOT climbing at that point (he was near 60 and, as noted, often wasted or hungover) we ended up hanging out a lot, sometime as the base of some boulders that all of the other guys were climbing.

I don't know how I always seemed to end up around climbers. A bunch of my college friends were big mountain guys too, and I spent a year with Willie Unsoeld as my teacher and academic advisor in 77-78, just a year before he died on Ranier. He was a really amazing man with a great family, who I was loosely in touch with for a few years after his death. He was in the first American group to summit Everest in '63 and I believe the first to try a particularly tough route. One of his partners on that climb, Tom Horbein, had a daughter who I shared an office with in the late '80's in a field that absolutely NOTHING to do with climbing.

Strange to think about all these years later. As far as I know, none of my current group of friends are climbers, or ever were climbers... But in my youth, I always seemed to be around them. And I wanted less than nothing to do with the activity itself.

-Ray
Cool stories Ray, thanks for sharing. To the bolded, as someone who has done a bit of climbing back in the 90's...the mental/emotional component makes it a lot harder. One's mental state while climbing has everything to do with the difficulty of an ascent. You burn more calories and tire faster when you're stressed mentally. The difference in difficulty when doing a lead climb versus a top-roped climb would be a clear example of this. When you're 20 feet above your last piece of protection, it is a completely different situation than when you're roped from above, and that stress manifests in the physical difficult of the climb...dramatically. Free climbing, I have to assume is even more dramatic a difference.

I get what you're saying, technically there is no difference, but the mental part of climbing is at least as much a factor as the physical. They can't be separated in my experience.
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Old 05-14-2020, 02:19 PM
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Cool stories Ray, thanks for sharing. To the bolded, as someone who has done a bit of climbing back in the 90's...the mental/emotional component makes it a lot harder. One's mental state while climbing has everything to do with the difficulty of an ascent. You burn more calories and tire faster when you're stressed mentally. The difference in difficulty when doing a lead climb versus a top-roped climb would be a clear example of this. When you're 20 feet above your last piece of protection, it is a completely different situation than when you're roped from above, and that stress manifests in the physical difficult of the climb...dramatically. Free climbing, I have to assume is even more dramatic a difference.

I get what you're saying, technically there is no difference, but the mental part of climbing is at least as much a factor as the physical. They can't be separated in my experience.
Good points. I'm trying to think of a corollary in other day to day sports. I guess we consider the greatest of the great those who can do it in the clutch, when there's the most pressure on them, when it's either win or go home. And there's no greater "win or go home" situation than free climbing at lethal heights. So I guess I can see it. Making 10 straight free throws is making 10 straight free throws, but doing it in the fourth quarter of game 7 in the playoffs is a different matter.

So, OK, I buy it. But the whole concept is so crazy to me it's hard to fully wrap my head around... I never even wanted to do any of it WITH protection. I sort of enjoyed some really minor bouldering as a kid, but never at heights that were gonna kill me at the smallest mistake...

-Ray
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  #73  
Old 05-14-2020, 02:34 PM
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Good points. I'm trying to think of a corollary in other day to day sports. I guess we consider the greatest of the great those who can do it in the clutch, when there's the most pressure on them, when it's either win or go home. And there's no greater "win or go home" situation than free climbing at lethal heights. So I guess I can see it. Making 10 straight free throws is making 10 straight free throws, but doing it in the fourth quarter of game 7 in the playoffs is a different matter.

So, OK, I buy it. But the whole concept is so crazy to me it's hard to fully wrap my head around... I never even wanted to do any of it WITH protection. I sort of enjoyed some really minor bouldering as a kid, but never at heights that were gonna kill me at the smallest mistake...

-Ray
Man, is that the truth. That movie (can’t remember what the name is) is fascinating as a study of a very odd dude, doing something that is just really hard to process. Seeing it through the eyes of a climber like Jimmy Chin makes it all the more dramatic. He can’t even seem to process it.
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  #74  
Old 05-15-2020, 07:33 AM
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Using the free throw analogy, free climbing El Cap would be like making 1000 free throws, with a gun to your head if you miss. Yes each physical move is kinda hard, but taken as a whole, and with the stakes at play, it becomes an insanely difficult thing to pull off.

The movie is "Free Solo" and it is excellent. Like I said, I sure hope Honnold is able to survive his passion.
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  #75  
Old 05-15-2020, 01:28 PM
Dru Edwards Dru Edwards is offline
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Mainly for Dru...

I spent my boyhood years in Halifax, Nova Scotia in the Armdale area not far from the rotary, and just down the tracks from the Ashburn Golf Course. From the time I could escape my mother’s apron strings to venture a bit on my own and with friends, apart from school and especially in the summer, I spent just about every waking moment outside the fence at hole #5 waiting for balls to sail over the fence of the dogleg hole. The young boys would race and fight over the balls to either sell back to the golfer, or to others later. I had a pretty good bank account as a kid.

Anyhow, I vividly recall one summer day back in the early ‘60s when for whatever reason, Arnold Palmer and Gary Player were in Halifax and played a round at the Ashburn, and there I was with my friends watching them come down the fairway and onto the green at hole #5. That was quite a thrill.

Now in my 60s, whenever we return to Halifax to visit family, I always visit hole #5 and won’t leave until I find at least one ball. I always come away with at least five. I just love the nostalgia of it. Last summer’s visit, I sold a golfer’s ball back to him. Actually, I wanted a dime like back in the old days, but he wasn’t carrying change, so I gave it to him. As he returned to his group, I heard him say to them...”Hey, there’s a guy in the bushes there who just gave me back my ball!”
Great story, Tom. Sounds like "Hole #5" could be a great song, something Brad Paisley would be interested in singing with you!
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