Songwriting and rhythm - any tips?

[Fliss]

As a fairly novice songwriter, I'm learning that my songwriting improves as my guitar playing improves, which is good. And I'm now getting frustrated with myself at a level I would have been delighted to have achieved a year ago, which means I'm making progress

I sometimes feel that what makes the difference between a good song and a better one is the guitar accompaniment, and I think that a lot of it has to do with rhythm. Some of the loveliest and most effective fingerstyle playing is in a totally different rhythm to the melody it's accompanying - something that complements and accentuates the melody. This may sound obvious, but it was something of an insight for me! However, when I come to try and apply this insight into my songwriting, I'm still struggling to get past a certain point.

I think this is probably like patting your head and rubbing your tummy; it will probably come with practice. And perhaps I just need to learn and practice more fingerstyle tunes in different rhythms and patterns in order to develop the "tools" to bring to my song-making. But does anyone have any particular hints and tips to help me get further along this journey?

FWIW, my mode of operation for songwriting is to start with the lyrics, then develop the melody and chords (sometimes parts of the melody will come to me at the same time as the lyrics) and then try and build any more complex picking last of all. I know a lot of people do it differently, perhaps beginning with noodling on the guitar, but when I've tried that it hasn't worked for me yet - I'm still more comfortable with words than music.

Fliss

[Mr. Dave]

Originally Posted by Fliss

As a fairly novice songwriter, I'm learning that my songwriting improves as my guitar playing improves, which is good. And I'm now getting frustrated with myself at a level I would have been delighted to have achieved a year ago, which means I'm making progress

Fliss, you've pretty much answered your own question - practice and patience. Stay with the process.

Originally Posted by Fliss

I sometimes feel that what makes the difference between a good song and a better one is the guitar accompaniment,

The operative term here is "sometimes". It is all part of telling a story. Each element of the music (lyrics, melody, rhythm, tempo, dynamics, accompaniment) is a way of communicating the story. Sometimes even the most beautifully executed guitar accompaniment actually distracts from the story and rips off energy from the piece as a whole. Many time less is much more.

Originally Posted by Fliss

something that complements and accentuates the melody.

Close (IMO) It is something that complements and supports the story you are telling. There are times when a composer deliberately chooses to set elements of divergent feeling states against one another, for the third feeling state this creates, i.e. the lyrics are telling a story of something that is ugly, but the accompaniment is pretty - the result may be a sardonic feel. This is an artistic decision. Sometimes it works - the listener "gets" it. Sometimes it doesn't.

Originally Posted by Fliss

But does anyone have any particular hints and tips to help me get further along this journey?

It really is about staying with the journey. You are like a stream that has encountered a boulder or log blocking its path. The stream is patient. It accumulates, and eventually it will build up to the point that it flows over or around the obstacle. In the process it has become deeper.

Originally Posted by Fliss

FWIW, my mode of operation for songwriting is to start with the lyrics, then develop the melody and chords (sometimes parts of the melody will come to me at the same time as the lyrics) and then try and build any more complex picking last of all. I know a lot of people do it differently, perhaps beginning with noodling on the guitar, but when I've tried that it hasn't worked for me yet - I'm still more comfortable with words than music.

Fliss

Yes. And some songs arrive in bits and pieces - a bit of the beginning, a bit of the end, a bit of the middle - gradually converging and coalescing into a whole. And isn't it fun chasing down a song?

To quote one of my favorite Sufi poems -

Who is this, shouting about death!?
I am a river!
Striding down into a deeper Ocean.

[ljguitar]

Hi Fliss...
Some ideas...

Since you start with lyrics, they can help set the rhythm. They can be spoken in time or recited in different rhythms - which can suggest which rhythms to use. An irritating thing to me is when people try to cram rhythm into a melody or jam it un-naturally into a song.

For lyrics to work for me, they need to flow with the music (or vice versa).

Lyrics can be played/sung/recited in strict time (even rhythm) or swung (dotted rhythms often with triplet subdivisions). Experimenting with both is a good tool for writing and developing songs.

[fulano]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dave

The operative term here is "sometimes". It is all part of telling a story. Each element of the music (lyrics, melody, rhythm, tempo, dynamics, accompaniment) is a way of communicating the story. Sometimes even the most beautifully executed guitar accompaniment actually distracts from the story and rips off energy from the piece as a whole. Many time less is much more.

I agree with this statement. Sometimes in an effort to make a song sound really polished and professional we confuse "aranging" with writing. The essecne of the song is the melody, lyrics (if any) and the basic chords that back it up. I generally try to get that down and then I play around with adding "arranging" flare to the song while I practice and polish it.

[skiltrip]

You might try just working out your chord progression without any fancy rhythmic work at first. Just basic strumming. Your lyrical flow will probably determine whether it's going to end up 3/4 or 4/4 or whatever. After you get the song down, you can stay with your chord progression, but start having more fun with the guitar and making it more interesting.

Also, if you have the lyrics and chord progressions written already (or at least in rough draft form), you'll have a better time making your guitar more interesting without going overboard and stepping on your vocal.

I wholeheartedly agree with the comment above that "less is more". In songs where I do make the rhythm playing a little bit fancier with some hammering, or muting, or picking, or whatever, I very often revert to more basic strumming while I'm singing. Cause when there are vocals going on, I usually want the voice to do the communicating and get the focus.

But again, all these rules are made to be smashed up, broken up, blended, sliced, diced, and even ignored. But they are all an excellent place to start.

[Fliss]

Thanks very much for your thoughtful responses, folks.

Lots of helpful stuff there, and it's good that it sounds as if I'm on the right sort of track, perhaps I'm just over-thinking it a little. Less is more - I like that.

Mr. Dave, you are absolutely right, it's about supporting the story more than the melody, thanks. I love your poetic way of expressing yourself - I am the stream that encounters the boulder... or perhaps I'm a babbling Brook

And perhaps what I'm talking about is really arrangement more than writing, but to some extent I think I need to be able to do some kind of arrangement of a song, more than just basic picking or strumming, to make it a little more interesting.

One of the things that got me thinking a bit more about this - I went on a songwriting workshop this weekend where one of the tutors was singer/songwriter Steve Tilston, and listening to the kind of stuff he was playing I found myself thinking more and more about this question, and how to try and bring this kind of stuff into my writing / playing. Here's a link to his MySpace site: http://www.myspace.com/stevetilston

Fliss

[Bob1131]

Originally Posted by Fliss

...I am the stream that encounters the boulder... or perhaps I'm a babbling Brook

Fliss

That's better than just "babbling," me thinks!

[Mr. Dave]

Originally Posted by Fliss

I am the stream that encounters the boulder... or perhaps I'm a babbling Brook

By the rivers we babble-on