Lower saddle height vs adjust neck angle

[stillsteven]

Say, your guitars (w/ bolt-on neck) have high action. Do you consider filing down the saddle first then do a neck reset only if necessary OR shoot for correct neck angle (frets height relative to top of the bridge) first then adjust the saddle if needed?

[rick-slo]

It depends.

[Guitars44me]

My guys ALWAYS want to start with a properly hydrated Guitar and case.

Let them both bask in 45% RH for at least two or three weeks before you do anything!

Adjust relief if needed. How YOU play will vary YOUR relief needs.

Next, double check the string height at the NUT, as well.

Then a neck set if needed, and then a new saddle if needed.

That is the order in which action should be adjusted. Unless I have spaced something else... hahaha

The quick and dirty method of sanding or shimming a Saddle will NOT yield the optimal tone, though it may well make it easier to play. On a glued in neck, it is a WAY more complicated process, obviously.

BTW, I have watched Tim Luranc do a neck set on my RT2 12c in about 7 or eight minutes... he did not need to change the (new) strings or it would have taken a few more minutes.

YMMV

If it is a GOOD axe give it a real setup! Then enjoy the rewards!

Paul

[Rosewood99]

There is no one answer. Like someone already said, it depends.

[stillsteven]

Thanks for the responses so far. From what I gather from some of you guys, it depends on the current setup/condition of the guitar (neck relief, dry/wet guitar, etc)?

I’m asking this because my friend has been dealing with slightly higher action on his Taylor 814 and he asked my opinion about it. I told him I don’t have hands-on experience on the matter because all of my guitars are not in a situation where neck adjustment is needed, but I can ask people on the forum who are far more knowledgable. As far as I can tell, the relief on the said guitar is still on point but if measured using a straightedge the height of the frets falls slightly below the bridge. The guitar too doesn’t show signs of being wet/dry. Since my friend always keeps it in a case when not played (with a hygrometer/thermometer), I think he takes care of the humidity side of things. The guy at Taylor he talked to recommends a shim replacement but the authorized tech told him to shave off the saddle instead. My personal opinion, it shouldn’t matter in the grand scheme of things as long as the saddle doesn’t get shaved too much to affect the tone and projection. But I did advise him to ask another tech for a second opinion. What do you guys think? Should he insist getting a shim replacement as recommended by Taylor or trust the authorized tech and let the saddle filed down a bit?

[Taylor Ham]

Originally Posted by stillsteven

Thanks for the responses so far. From what I gather from some of you guys, it depends on the current setup/condition of the guitar (neck relief, dry/wet guitar, etc)?



I’m asking this because my friend has been dealing with slightly higher action on his Taylor 814 and he asked my opinion about it. I told him I don’t have hands-on experience on the matter because all of my guitars are not in a situation where neck adjustment is needed, but I can ask people on the forum who are far more knowledgable. As far as I can tell, the relief on the said guitar is still on point but if measured using a straightedge the height of the frets falls slightly below the bridge. The guitar too doesn’t show signs of being wet/dry. Since my friend always keeps it in a case when not played (with a hygrometer/thermometer), I think he takes care of the humidity side of things. The guy at Taylor he talked to recommends a shim replacement but the authorized tech told him to shave off the saddle instead. My personal opinion, it shouldn’t matter in the grand scheme of things as long as the saddle doesn’t get shaved too much to affect the tone and projection. But I did advise him to ask another tech for a second opinion. What do you guys think? Should he insist getting a shim replacement as recommended by Taylor or trust the authorized tech and let the saddle filed down a bit?

Sanding down the saddle won't hurt anything if done correctly, but has the potential to introduce issues if done incorrectly. Especially if you're removing and replacing it without taking care of the es2 pickup elements.

Taylors are already set up with a lower string height off the top and lower saddle protrusion from the bridge than Martin. If your friend's guitar is post 2000 or so it should have the NT neck. Think of it less as a major reset and more of a fine adjustment. It takes barely more effort to swap shims than sanding the saddle correctly anyway.

[stillsteven]

Originally Posted by Taylor Ham

Sanding down the saddle won't hurt anything if done correctly, but has the potential to introduce issues if done incorrectly. Especially if you're removing and replacing it without taking care of the es2 pickup elements.

Taylors are already set up with a lower string height off the top and lower saddle protrusion from the bridge than Martin. If your friend's guitar is post 2000 or so it should have the NT neck. Think of it less as a major reset and more of a fine adjustment. It takes barely more effort to swap shims than sanding the saddle correctly anyway.

This guitar in particular is a 2011 Taylor 814ce that came preinstalled with ES1 pickup system (not sure how that will change your answer since you were referring to the newer ES2 system). Interestingly, my older Taylor 110 still keeps its low action over the years even though for the first few years of its life I used 13 gauge strings on it while my friend’s 814ce with a set of 12s having this high action. My friend’s fear is that the authorized tech doesn’t care about setting up the guitar properly and just want to get it over with the quickest way possible because it’s a warrantied work (free of charge). To make matters worse, this tech is the only Taylor authorized tech in the province so he doesn’t have the luxury of going to other authorized tech. From what I read in this forum, I have since advised him to tell the tech nicely but firmly that he wants to get the shims replaced instead of altering the saddle. Have any of you experience similar situation before, i.e. authorized tech hesitant to do a simple (Taylor) neck reset because it’s not a paid job? or do you know any recommended techs/luthiers in BC, Canada? I’m sure my friend is willing to spend some cash to get this guitar fixed the right way (and he just told me Taylor rep he talked to is willing to send him replacement shims for free but he’s not comfortable doing a neck reset by himself).

[nikpearson]

Providing the instrument is properly humidified, it makes more sense to re-optimise the neck angle rather than simply removing material from the saddle. The reason this is not down with most guitars (with a glued neck joint) is that the process is time-consuming, expensive and risks damage. With Taylor’s NT neck the job can be be completed very quickly: it involves removing 3 bolts and changing the neck pocket shims.

I’m surprised that the Taylor approved tech seems reluctant to do this.

The only reason to adjust the saddle height in a Taylor is to accommodate a setup outside of factory spec.

[ruger9]

On my Walden, which probably needs a neck re-set, I sanded down the saddle. It worked great, especially since I could do it myself in 30 minutes. I think the guitar is right on the verge of really needing a neck reset, as I definitely could not sand the saddle down any more. I also think lowering the saddle made the guitar a little "quieter"- and I think re-setting the neck and replacing the saddle would give some more volume.

I've researched doing a neck re-set on a Walden (neck is bolted on), but it's just out of my experience range. And it's not a high-dollar guitar I need to spend another 300 on or whatever... it plays great and sounds good with the lowered saddle. Good enough.

[jpmist]

Originally Posted by nikpearson

Providing the instrument is properly humidified, it makes more sense to re-optimise the neck angle rather than simply removing material from the saddle. The reason this is not done with most guitars (with a glued neck joint) is that the process is time-consuming, expensive and risks damage. With Taylor’s NT neck the job can be be completed very quickly: it involves removing 3 bolts and changing the neck pocket shims.

I’m surprised that the Taylor approved tech seems reluctant to do this.

Just here to ditto this. I didn't notice a mention of how much saddle height exists over the bridge. If it's less than 3mm it's better to simply get the neck reset since it's so easily done. Lower than 3mm runs into string break angle issues that might affect the guitar's tone. I'm thinking the luthier was offering a quick and easy fix that might end up being just a short term one.

[lowrider]

I've never owned or worked on a Taylor but from what I've seen, you always adjust the string height by adjusting the neck on a Taylor and it's a 15 minute job for someone who knows's what they are doing.

On other guitars, it doesn't ''depend''. You get the neck relief adjusted first, then the nut, then the saddle. If you sand the saddle first then do the others, you'll probably have to redo the saddle.

[stillsteven]

Thanks guys for the responses. From what I learn so far, sanding down the saddle will solve the issue just fine but it comes with a risk not worth taking for this specific guitar. Especially when doing a Taylor neck reset is such a simple procedure. Maybe on other guitars lowering the saddle is the more appropriate method for minor adjustments like this (string action is high but it isn’t outrageously high) because neck reset is a more serious and time-consuming procedure.

Now that I think about it, I’m quite surprised the authorized technician was reluctant to do a neck reset. The only reasons I could think of either A) my friend’s fear is true, i.e. the tech is just looking for a short cut or short term fix or B) he did not realize he was inspecting a Taylor guitar with a bolt-on neck lol maybe his minds were somewhere else

Originally Posted by jpmist

I didn't notice a mention of how much saddle height exists over the bridge.

I didn’t measure the saddle height yesterday when I looked at the guitar. What I know it’s the original height out of the factory. Judging from 2 Taylor guitars I have with me (both unaltered factory saddle), the saddle height at low e is 2.5-2.75mm, high e 1.75-2mm. Interestingly, both Taylors’ saddle are rather short in comparison to my Martin’s or Larrivee’s.

[phavriluk]

TAYLOR GUITARS ARE DIFFERENT!

One purpose of the NT neck system is to allow good string height at the bridge and break angle, and adjust string height over the fretboard by varying the shim set that sets neck angle. Saddles are sanded/shimmed on other guitars because there's nothing else to do, it's a default activity, not the geometrically correct activity.

To adjust Taylor string height, a technician needs to pick up his tools, not sandpaper.

[Misifus]

Importantly, critically, those adjustments do different things. They are used to fix different problems. If the neck is’t straight, the relief needs to be fixed with the truss rod. If the neck is straight, but the neck angle is wrong, a neck reset may be called for. However, neck angle and neck relief are two different things. Try checking out Frets.com for a good explanation of both.

[Guitars44me]

If your buddy bought this axe new, it may well be a warrantee fix. If not it still should not be expensive.

Ask for a tech who knows what they're doing. Sanding the saddle down is not the way to go on a Taylor, as mentioned so many times above

Best on this

Paul